This is Keith and this is Ben, and this is Main Street Lutherans. So our guest for this episode is Dave Scheer. He is best known, at least to us to begin with, as a musician. He went as is Agape. Was that the name that he traveled under? And he played. It was basically hip hop music with a Lutheran lyric that showed up at events like the Detroit Youth Gathering and then Synod events and, I don't know, catechism retreats, probably all sorts of stuff. We actually talked about him when we covered the congregation in Tucson, Arizona, because they used his liturgy for some services. And that was an interesting note there. So we were thinking about that and the influence of people at youth events. I think for Keith and I both, for me, mostly as a youth, I haven't done youth events as an adult for the most part, but I think he's had a lot of momentous events or people that he's met who are on that circuit that he's gotten to know as a pastor at those youth events. Right.

Yeah. Because ironically, our, our stories are kind of reversed there. I didn't, I wasn't really involved in the youth ministry much growing up. We didn't have a lot of that going on in my own church. But yeah, once I got into college and the beginnings of professional ministry, I had the opportunity to meet some folks and do some things along that line too. Yeah. And yeah, there's different people that you meet that they really stand out in one way or another, often leaving pretty profound impact, I think. You know, Dave, I met him, it was probably about 2004. He's a little younger than me, so I'm guessing that he was in his mid-20s at the time and he came to. To be the, the musician and keno, both for a modest sized middle school youth gathering at a, in a camp setting. There were probably about, I don't know, 150 kids in attendance from the Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod. I was along as the, my congregation was involved in this, but I was. My specific role as a leader was to run what they called the Spirit Room, which is sort of their meditation space. Kind of quiet, individual come through and just spend some time with God kind of thing.

See, I would think the Spirit Room would be the loud room.

Yeah, yeah, you can, you can spin these names and labels in all different ways. But yeah, this was their, this was sort of their quiet prayer chapel space and didn't get a lot of traffic, it being a middle school retreat. But there were a few kids that came through. But Dave came in One day and we just got to sit and talk for like, a good solid hour and really got to know each other and, like, one another. And then, you know, spent that weekend socializing. And then I've run into him at two or three other different places in the. Over the course of about maybe 15 years. And I think, as we say in the episodes coming up, I'm guessing it's been probably about 10 years since he and I last actually met in person or had a conversation together. But, you know, you introduced me to Lost and Found. Right. As the, you know, a band that is. Is really well known to Lutherans our age.

Right.

Not so much to. To people much younger than us, you know, a generation younger. Yeah. But not. Not like kids today.

Right. But yeah, yeah, actually, I think more Presbyterian and UCC kids, no lesson found because they played their national youth gatherings more recently, right? Yeah, since 2010, at least. So.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually Lost and Found, I think I first saw them in Northeast Ohio at their LYO event, Lutheran Youth Organization events in the 80s and 90s. Although I didn't grow up in that synod. My aunt was there in the Cleveland area, and so she had her youth group up there, and so we'd go up and join that. We also saw Jay beach there, which Jay beach was mostly known for being a youth gathering music for.

For several.

Like San Antonio. I think he was there in Dallas. So. So lots of those in the early days of the ELCA youth gatherings when they. When they brought them together under that.

Which, just a reminder, we have an episode about if anybody wants to know more about youth gathering. Yeah, gathering. We've got an episode about that and

we might do another one soon because the. The Minneapolis Youth Gathering is next summer.

Yeah. 2027.

We'll touch base with them.

I think Dakota Road is another band that came along through a lot of youth gatherings.

Yeah. And Dakota Road. Did you see them at Capitol? They performed at Capitol.

I did not.

The first time I encountered them was in my first call in Lansdale. They played a regional youth gathering that I went to in Staten island in New York. I actually got to go up on stage with them along with one of the kids in my youth group for a song. I got to play percussion and he was at the drum set, and we had a good time playing a couple of songs with them.

Yeah. An interesting thing about. About Dakota Road was that James Hirsch was one of the guys in it, at least for Atlanta, when they played the youth gathering, and he was there when they stopped by Capitol. That fall after the, after the youth gathering. And so I remembered his song A Cow is Parked in My Driveway. Or There's a Cow Parked in My Driveway is the name of the song. And it was the funniest song and I couldn't find it, you know, when I got. When I. We had our son when Duncan was born in 2008, I really wanted that song. Or I think, I think we were. I think Deborah was pregnant. So we went to this farm. Okay, so we're going to get sidetracked here, but we went to this farm which is an ELC. Well, it was a farm owned by an ELCA pastor who, who bought his grandparents 100 acre farm that was close to the church that he got a call to. He bought it, moved into the farmhouse and then decided to start a ministry called Hope csa. And it is clergy Supported Agriculture. If you know the normal csa, that's community Supported agriculture. Well, Hope CSA invites pastors out to work on the farm a week. So Monday through Friday they work in the morning, they do Bible study at lunch and then they have reflection time afterwards. One of Jeff Hawkins themes on that is you have to learn how to tend sheep if you're going to tend sheep. And so this is oriented toward urban pastors, people in the suburbs and in the cities to get in touch with rural life.

Okay.

And so, so this is out in sort of north central Indiana, maybe an hour from Indianapolis. And so, so we had signed up for their regular CSA and we were getting our food from there, meat and vegetables. And then we go to their farm party and we, you know, they've got a friend of theirs that's playing music from, from the Dakotas. And so we sit down, we get our food, we sit down and he starts playing. There's a cow parked in my driveway. Right. And so there he is, he's best friends with Jeff Hawkins from this farm. And here I get to re. Establish connection and then find out where to get those CDs. So we did end up buying the music for that because that was still the CD era. But yeah, so that's the kind of influence that happens, right?

Yeah. You know, Dakota Road, Lost and Found and Dave all together have this great gift of being not only incredibly talented and versatile musicians, but you know, really good working theologians in the context of youth ministry. And to be able to stand up in front of a group in and entertain them is fantastic. And we're gonna hear Dave talk to this a little bit too in the episode coming up, but also to be able to speak in ways that are profoundly relational to these kids and theological. To be able to speak solid grace oriented Lutheran theology, which is very different from, say, I don't know, Ben, in, in the part of the world that you've lived in. Have you ever heard of a music festival called Creation? It happens in central Pennsylvania every summer and it's kind of like a big Christian Woodstock. It's a, it's a multi day camp out on a hillside, listen to these rock bands kind of thing. It happens every year, but it draws you like mostly kind of an evangelical.

Sure.

Church kind of band, sound and crowd. And it's, you know, thousands and thousands of people that attend this thing every year. Many of them camp, you know, non stop for the 3, 4 days, however long this thing is. And you know, they're gonna, they're gonna hear music and they're also gonna hear Christian witness. But it's gonna be a very different theological backstory than, than what you hear at, you know, where all those other groups are, are. These are the guys that we know, as well known as, you know, the bands that appear at a Creation fest.

No, of course I know them better.

Right, yeah, but you know, yeah, to be able to hear somebody to speak of solid grace oriented theology, you know, with an open welcome from God to kids, you know, just as they are, is really, is really critical and it does have a profound impact. It had a profound impact on us. Right. You know, as teens and young adults that, you know, we're still talking about, you know, now a quarter of a century later. Yeah, yeah. I've had the chance to be on stage in a, in a band in small venues for, you know, synod and camp settings. I was in the Winterfest band for our synod here in Lower Susquehanna Synod for a couple of years. When I first came to the synod back when I was younger and cooler, you know, and that led me to be able to have some conversation now, you know, we didn't. The band setting that we were in, we were not the keynotes. We were, we were the worship band. And so, you know, we would play a couple of songs and then somebody else would come out and speak or there would be video, you know, whatever was going to be going on as part of the large group, you know, and, but you know, at an event with 2, 300 people, eventually you're going to be sitting at lunch and someone's going to come up and say, hey, you know, thanks for sharing your music. And it strikes up a conversation and it gives you a chance to, you Know, make a connection with people. And, you know, I'm a, I'm a pastor, so I have the opportunity to do that. There are other people in the band that are not pastors that also had that opportunity. And so it's great to see lay people being able to engage these kids in formational ways as well. So it's really quite a, quite a privilege to be involved in that kind of setting in that kind of way. Yeah.

And I was also thinking of there was a youth gathering at Wittenberg University when I was in high school and we stayed in the dorms and at night a guitar, you know, rang through the hallways because, you know, empty dorms, you know, everything echoes all over the place. So finally found a guy named Mike Hout. Pastor Mike Haught, strumming his guitar and singing with his kids and his youth group in, in one of the, one of the rooms. And, and so we sat with him and got to meet him. And so now I've known Mike for 30 some years and you know, he's, he's, he's set all sorts of records in a sport called joggling, but he's a great pastor in Miamisburg, Ohio. And he, he is just great. And, and so, you know, he became a pastor that wasn't my pastor. And so when I had questions that I didn't want to take to my pastor at home, I could contact him and get an answer. I trusted him and it was from meeting him in that situation.

Yeah, yeah. Those trusted adults are critical to youth and young adults growing up to be people of faith. Absolutely.

Yeah. And he didn't have that thing of being famous. It's not like I send an email to Lost and Found and expect them to answer my question. So, so it's good to have those people too. So.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, this interview we thought was going to go one direction and it turns out that it was instead of the light hearted, fun, sort of music oriented thing, it went a completely different direction. And it is very exciting to get to share that with you today. So here we go, Dave Shear.

Well, today we have the opportunity to interview one of my personal idols. I guess I could say maybe that's not the right way to word it on a Christian podcast, but a person that I have known and respected for a pretty long time in my work as a Lutheran pastor. And we are really honored to have David Shearer on the show with us, also known as Agape. And I'm gonna let you know, Dave, tell your story on your own words. But I'll just say we first met at a middle school event at which I was sort of the chaplain for the weekend. This was back 20 years ago, just about a little more even. And Dave was there as the. As he labels himself, the infotainment, the edutainment. Excuse me, Edutainment. He was there to be both the stage band and the keynote speaker for the weekend. And, Dave, you are an amazing musician and speaker and organizer of all kinds of cool stuff, and we're just really honored to have you with us on the show today. So thanks for joining us.

Thanks for having me. Keith, I was glad when you said that you were a leader at the time. I was worried that you were a participant at the one that I performed at because people would come up to me and say, oh, man, I saw you when I was in middle school. And now my grandkids love your music. I hear those kind of things. And I'm like, no, I can.

I don't know by how much, but I can safely report that I am older than you.

Okay. Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. So see, I was worried that you were both in middle school.

Well, you know, it's funny when you say it that way. You say we met in a middle school event. It's like, yeah, we could have both been in middle school. No, no, we were working at this event. So, yeah. So, you know, Dave, when. When I, When I first encountered you, you were primarily a. You know, it. You do kind of defy categories. You're. You're a speaker and a musician. You came as a hip hop artist, which is already, you know, pretty uncommon in Lutheran circles, at least in a. In a big name kind of way. And you could, you could interact with. With young people, young adults, and get them to listen to your music, watch your dances and learn theology along the way. And it was just, it was really amazing to watch that. And I'm sure that you're still doing that. I'm just saying that I haven't had the opportunity to see it in some time, but, you know, we've encountered one another in a couple of settings along the way, but it's been, golly, I'm thinking, at least 10 years since we crossed paths. So tell us a little bit, if you would, about your kind of your origin story. How did you get started in that role? And then we do want to come up to the present day and learn about what you're up to now, please. Floor is yours.

Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Keith. Pastor Keith. Yeah. You know, as I like to say, you know, the white Bilingual Lutheran rapper was not as. As booming as it is now back when I first started. So. But no, I. It's a lonely intersection as. As some say. No, it was. It was good to, you know, for me growing up, I grew up with six generations of Lutheran pastors in my family, so please pray for me on that side. And I.

If you go seven generations, something special happens, doesn't it?

Yes. The number of completions. So that's why I haven't. That's why I haven't done it yet. But no, I. So I did. You know, I always heard stories of faith and all of that, but the truth is, my mom and I, we weren't really church attenders. I wasn't because my parents were divorced. I lived in Minnesota, my dad lived in Washington. And so, you know, I always was a very spiritually curious person, but I didn't really necessarily have the. Really heal the binding together a community. And then I got into college and there was this nice guy on my floor, and he just had this bubbly, joyful presence. And he said, hey, come to this, you know, this gathering, this campus crusade for Christ gathering. And I showed up and, and, and I really kind of fell into the arms of God in. In more ways than one. And I was learning about all kinds of things in my theology class. Paul Tillich was teaching me about ultimate concern and finite causes. And they're the void about how they're all doomed to pass. And that's the void we experience. And. And we all have ultimate concern in something. And why not put your ultimate concern in something that is that. That won't disappoint. And so that was when my faith became really important to me. And so I started making music that reflected that. So that's. That's the music part. And then the. And then the hip or, sorry, the faith part, but the music part, which I think is really important to name. And I know this will be a surprise to some people, but the people that look like me did not create hip hop music. So just make sure everybody knows that. And I would say, you know, you can't love hip hop and hate the people who created hip hop. So I always just owe them a bunch of. I mean, I think about early, early teachers. So first grade, Justin and Jason were my early friends showing me how to break dance, you know, and Lionel, their dad. So that was kind of my first exposure to hip hop culture. And then fifth grade, DeShawn taught me how to beatbox. And seventh grade, Lewis taught me how to battle rap. These were all men of color. That taught me. And I would. So I would say, I'm a. I'm a guest in the house of hip hop. And, you know, so I try not to put my feet up on the couch too much without, you know, having permission. And so the. The thing is with hip hop is like, are you taken from the culture? Are you contributing to the culture? And I hope that in my life and ministry that I'm hopefully contributing something to the culture, not just taking from it. I performed. I'm fast forwarding through the story, but basically I recorded a cd. This guy named Kelly Chapman was in charge of the National Lutheran Youth Organization. He said, hey, I heard your cd. Would you come to Puerto Rico and perform for young people? I was like, puerto Rico? Absolutely. Getting the limousine. It's gonna be, man. It's gonna be. I'll be a rap star if I get there. I do my thing, and a young person comes up to me and is crying and saying, like, you know, you. You really changed my perspective on God and the world. And I'm thinking about, like, is my hair in place? Did I do it right? And. And then it was kind of like the spirit was like, man, this is so much bigger than your own ego or your own whatever. And then. And then Pastor Kelly said to me, God is going to use you to. To open doors and. And younger people of color are going to walk through those doors because you're a son of the congregation. And, you know, you. You present a comfortable package to white Lutheran folks. A 97 white Lutheran church. But. But once you. Once those doors are open, then younger people of color are gonna. Are going to walk through. And so I was kind of speaking prophetically at that moment. And fast forward a little bit further. It was about 10 years ago that another prophet said to me, dave, you're a white guy doing hip hop. You're not empowering young people of color in the ways that honor the spirit of hip hop. And that's racist. And that was really convicting words to me. And so at that point, I started bringing younger people of color with me on the stage and saying, hey, if you're gonna book me, I'm gonna bring somebody with me. And that was what basically then began the partnership with Joe Davis, who was a spoken word poet at the time. I said, hey, can you come with me to some of these gigs? He's like, yes, I want to do what you do. So we formed this apprenticeship and then eventually partnership and a friendship and a brotherhood at this point. And so We. We kind of worked together, and now we've done it for the last 10 years and a lot of it together. You know, he does all those things separately and I do some things separately, but. Yeah, that was way more than you wanted to know. But that's. That's. That's a big part of the story.

No, that's fantastic. Thank you. Thank you. So

did I even answer your question with my spicy brain? Sorry, I. Absolutely not even. Okay, all right, good.

You're good. So tell us a little bit more about Just Move and the work that you're doing through that organization.

Yeah, yeah. So. So. So about 11 years ago was really when that sort of metanoia moment happened for me. And there is. It's a series of metanoia moments. But I will tell you one slightly more dramatic moment that was part of the genesis was I was. It was 2015. I was invited in late June to come to South Carolina for a centered youth gathering. So I show up to Newberry College and two. Two people walk in and one of them is a pastor, the other one's a youth pastor. And they say, we don't know what happened. We don't know what happened. I said, what? Well, they said, we. We can't stay at the gathering because we have to go minister to this family that's in our congregation. They said, we don't know what happened, but there was a young man in this congregation. He was baptized in our church. He was confirming our church. And eventually he found belonging. He found welcome safety and belonging in white supremacy culture. And he started veering off. And eventually he found mentors. He found, you know, culture, healthy culture in quotes. And eventually, those of you who know the story, this young man went into Mother Emanuel AME Church and shot nine of God's beloved children on June 17, 2015. And this was like June 20th first. This was four days after this had happened. And it just shook me to my core because I was like, you know, I was. At first I was buying their narrative because I'm like, yeah, that's messed up. Like, in spite of all the wonderful anti racist, you know, sermons that are being preached, or in spite of, you know, hearing that white supremacy is idolatry and racism is sin, and, you know, in spite of all the wonderful things I'm sure they're hearing from their congregation and the representative art on the walls, you know, they. He still fell into this white supremacy culture. And then I was saying, oh, oh, I think it might be not in spite of it, but partially because of it, my guess is there actually was never allowed counter narrative to white supremacy culture. My fear is that he only did see white Jesus on the. On the walls. My fear was that all of his mentors and some of the folks in the narthex were telling jokes that that probably shouldn't be told. And that's what really haunted me, that it wasn't the crazy evangelicals, it wasn't the, you know, whoever it was, the ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the 97 white church that I love dearly. It was one of us, so to speak. And I hate to have that provincialism, but that was, that was really what was happening in me when that happened. And so at that point I said, we all have a responsibility to create a church and a world and a community that is more just, that is that honors, that aligns our heart with God's heart for all people. And so that was really what kind of thrust me into racial justice work in the church and in other spaces as well. And so Joe and I were able to provide, as we, as we say in education, windows and mirrors. You know, I could provide a mirror for people, you know, a lot of times, like white folks like me, that they could interrogate their own race and culture and identity. And then Joe could also provide a window for people to see other ways of being and what that looked like. And I obviously provided a window for other people as well. It wasn't just that simple, but so being able to work together has really allowed us to connect with a whole bunch of people that I could never connect with when I was all by myself and trying to do it all by myself and, and. And do the solo thing. So it's been really great to partner with Joe and other people like Carla Christopher, who I saw was on your podcast, and. Yeah. And other, especially leaders of color who have so much to bring this church. It's been really great. So

we have some great ones, few and far between, but. But man, we've got some great, great people.

Yeah, absolutely. And what happens, unfortunately, and this is so this. I'm just gonna complete the story here is because about a year and a half ago, Joe and I are driving. We're going to rural Minnesota, right. Southeast Minnesota. And I say, Joe, when you think about your deepest joy and the thing that lights you up when you go to bed at night and the thing you dream about doing, is it driving to Cannon Falls, Minnesota, to go share painful stories of racism, to try to convince a white lady that racism is a thing, and then having her cry on your shoulder and have you have to comfort her, even though you're the one experiencing the racism you're having, you know, like, is that, you know, is that, is that your sweet spot? He's like, no, it's not really my sweet spot. Thanks for asking. So, so I, I, so, so then he was able to really identify, like, yeah, this, because we would go do these gigs and I would look over and he would be asleep by the time we got in the car. I mean, he literally, his head would bit the pillow right away. So I'm like, man, this is really exhausting. And, and he identified that. So he's like, dave, I think you should go to these rural spaces and go talk to these white people. I don't need to be there. Like, you need to get your own people right? And I. And so we, we've learned how to be way more strategic now when we work with, with congregations, about when do I show up by myself, when do I bring him? Because what happens is white folks, God bless us, we've been socialized where we don't necessarily know how to shoulder the discomfort, and men don't know how to shoulder discomfort, and hetero folks don't know how to show the discomfort. So what happens? We offload it onto minoritized bodies because we haven't done our own work. And so part of what I'm really passionate about now is I'm trying to help us develop us, meaning white folks, white men especially, cishet white men especially, to develop a cultural container that can hold the discomfort and so that we can cry those tears together. We can comfort each other, challenge each other so that we don't. We don't keep going to our friend of color. Hey, teach me. Assuage me of my guilt. Comfort me and tell me I'm one of the good ones. You know, all these patterns that we have that not because we're bad people, but it's just the way kind of the things we've learned socially, trying to break those patterns. So.

Yeah. Yeah.

So.

All right. So as we were speaking a little bit before we started recording, I'm lead pastor at this congregation in York, Pennsylvania, that is, by and large, predominantly white congregation. And by and large, folks that do not live in the immediate vicinity of this church. We're in a, we're in an urban setting. It's setting, it's a small city, but we are in the city of York, very close to the edge where, you know, like, you could throw a rock from our campus and land in the neighboring borough, if you have a good arm. Anyway, I couldn't do it, but you probably could. So we've got, you know, white folks that are driving into church for. On Sunday mornings, you know, anywhere from 5 minutes away to 25 minutes away. Typically, our immediate neighborhood is predominantly. Well, maybe not predominantly, but definitely way more diversified than our congregation is. And the youth center that we've been operating for decades, since the, you know, the middle of the 20th century, you know, predominantly draws in young people of color, whether it's to play basketball, to get help with their homework, to just have a safe place off out of their neighborhood for a couple of hours each night of the week. We have an after school program that operates out of the youth center as well. And that's fantastic. You know, so for a long time, St. Matthew has had a commitment to operating this youth center to provide safe space, to provide love and support, care for people in our community. That's the positive side of it. The part that I struggle with personally as pastor in this place is that we are content to pay staff to, you know, run this ministry for us. And there is very little in terms of. And the congregation feels good about that. They're proud of this ministry, which they should be. Right? It's fantastic. But we no longer have a vehicle for our predominantly older white folks in the congregation to come and be in relationship with the kids that are coming into the center. So the question I would have for you is what might you suggest as a starting point to help draw these communities closer together other than coexisting in the same building, but not at the same time?

Yeah, great question, Keith. And, you know, hey, I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you for risk of, you know, giving away my, my. Our keynote performances that we do for senate assemblies and fall theological conferences. I'll give you the.

We are planning on making sure we record you rapping at least for a little bit.

Okay. Absolutely.

Yeah.

But, no, but here. Here's my spiel. Here's my very quick spiel for folks is this. Here's the deal. Many of us, we say to ourselves, okay, look, we got 97 white ELCA church. 65 is in rural spaces at least. First call there, you know, 65 of them. Median age is somewhere between 65, 67 years old. So what happens is most of us, we. We show up and we go. We look at our congregation, go, oh, there's a bunch of old white Lutherans. Okay, well, how do we become more diverse? And okay, whatever. Great question. But here's the deal. Here's what I always tell people. There are contours of difference that are present right under your nose. And what happens so many times is when we minimize that difference, we fail to see that difference to, to appreciate that difference and ultimately to adapt our own behavior to account for that difference. To make people feel welcomed and included and a way that's authentic and appropriate. Like if we haven't learned that skill in our 97% white church, in our quote unquote monocultural space. If I, if I can't sit around with four Scandinavian women in their 80s and notice what makes each of them different and try to respond accordingly to make them feel welcomed and included and loved by God. If I can't do that in that, at that table, what makes me think that I'm going to go show up and get in a spaceship and go travel to a faraway land where there's diversity and, or in your case, on the other side of the building and, and show up, well in those spaces. So I always tell people, like, your practice field is right here, right now. There are differences right under your nose. And it. And so what I love about this intercultural development work I do is that pretty much everything can become grist for the mill for our own development. You know, we, we can always, you know, T.S. eliot says everyone gets the experience and some get the lesson. Like, we can use almost every experience as a lesson in how we model Christ's love more for, for those who are different from us in quotes. And so I just would like, it's not an either or because, yes, there are certain kinds of diversity that are weighted differently, and we want to honor the weight of that. There's different, you know, but there are differences that are really, that make a difference that are right there. And so I would tell people, start with interrogating your own cultural patterns, your own dominant cultural pattern. So I would say, okay, you know what? We have a way of doing time on our staff right now. Are we more monochronic or polychronic? In other words, do we have one bit one way of being in time or multiple ways of being in time? And where are we on that continuum? Okay, that's a particular way of doing it. How do we do worship? Well, we do Northern European hymnody from 500 years ago. Okay. That's how we do worship. There's many different ways to do worship. And so what that does, when you make the implicit explicit and you name it to tame it or whatever you want to say, that that takes away the weaponization of these norms that go unnamed because culture is learned, shared, and unspoken. And so if we don't actually name those norms, that can really become a barrier for folks. So now when I. So now when I go across the street or wherever, how across the building, and I'm aware that, oh, I have a. I have a conflict style, I have a way of doing time, I have a way of communicating that's either direct or indirect. I have a way of decision making that's either, you know, unilateral or egalitarian and so on and so forth. Once I. Once I'm aware of those under the iceberg patterns, not the ones that are above the iceberg, like, oh, you have a different music and dress and speak speech, but, like, you have different ways of raising your kids. You have to, you know, all of those under the iceberg. Once I've done some of that reflection work, then I can start to learn how to adapt my own behavior and decide, do I want to be a little more emotive right now? Because this person has maybe a little bit more of an emotive communication style, maybe I could do the same to. To make sure that they feel welcomed and included and so on and so forth. So that's. That would be like one of the first places. The other place I would start from in terms of just learning our history is like, let's learn our history, the good, the bad, and everything between, like, how did this church get here? And let's learn about these beautiful saints and. And the work that they did to get there. And, oh, let's. Yes, in my part of the country, let's learn about the Homestead act and the displacement of indigenous folks and broken treaties and all that. That's part of the story too. But I'm currently a part of a campaign with white men for racial justice called We Can Handle the Truth. And. And it's very Lutheran, because what we're saying is we can handle the truth. That, yes, our ancestors did wonderful things and sometimes our ancestors fell short. And yes, we live in an amazing country with so many wonderful things to offer, and sometimes our country falls short and so on and so forth. And so I just think for churches to. To get grounded in where we've been is another really important first step. And there's a few other first steps, but that's what I got. I know we got a quick interview here, so thank you.

Thank you. Yeah, I'm. I've am reminded again. I've been reminded again a couple of times in the last couple of weeks that York, Pennsylvania, is about an hour away from Carlisle Penns, which is home to one of the most notorious Native American boarding schools in our country's history. And, you know, I sometimes just think, you know, we should pack up, take a field trip and encounter some of our own uncomfortable history.

And Keith, here's the thing. Here's the thing, man. Like, I get so. You're going to get me real fired up here in a second because I get so po'd with all these Lutherans who have this beautiful theological framework that literally every Sunday, say, if we say we have not participated in systems of domination, we deceive ourselves and the truth isn't in us, like, by what we've done, by what we've left undone. And yet that doesn't essentialize us. We are still beloved children of God. Like, we literally say all that stuff on Sunday, and then on Tuesday when our coworker says, hey, you said something racist, that kind that didn't feel great, and we go, oh, my gosh, that means I'm a horrible, irredeemable human being with. And you're telling me that I'm awful and I'll never be loved. And it's like, no, like, claim our theology, this freedom of grace that allows us to be both and to be both sinner and saint, never stop being both. That should, for those of us who want to do racial justice work. This should free us to, like, to be able to dive in and to mess up and do better the next time. And remember that God's mercies are new every morning. Like, I just. I think people are so scared to excavate their histories or their. The ways they've fallen short. And. And it's like, we don't have to be scared. We can. We can tell this truth, and the truth will set us free. Sorry, I just got. I went on my soapbox there. But I just. Let's. Let's claim our beautiful theology that. That allows us to hold both of these things right?

And then the other. The other possibility is that, you know, somebody confronts us about saying something racist, and we just completely deny it and tell them that they misinterpreted it and they're wrong. So, yeah, we fall victim to both extremes. You know, sometimes simultaneously, you know, we either. We either, you know, go into complete denial of our own internal brokenness and just, you know, throw up defense after defense, or, you know, once that crumbles, then we resort, revert to toxic shame and. And now have reach. No, no, Capability of, of learning and growing and, and changing who we are. Yeah.

So, and you know, I have a friend, I have a friend who said three words to me. She said that was racist. That's all she said. And I had a whole bubble of things that she was saying to me and it was, hey, irredeemable person who's trying to harm me on purpose. You have messed up and you, and I'm telling you this to shame you and, and you'll never do any better. And what was happening in her bubble as I got more curious and was able to talk to her, was, hey, beloved child of God doing his best, who has, you know, got a little spinach in his teeth. You know, I'm, I'm letting you know because I love you. And I'm actually risking a lot to tell you because historically when folks do share this feedback, how do you think it usually goes? It doesn't go very well. And I'm risking this because I actually care about you and I believe in your ability to course correct. That's why I'm sharing it with you. And I believe you're going to rise to the occasion when you get this feedback. So, man, if we could use that bubble instead of the other bubble I think we could receive. I mean, nobody loves to hear like, hey, you didn't quite show up as well as you wanted to show up. Like, nobody really loves to get that feedback. But I think there is a way, if we can hear it, more of that second bubble than the first bubble.

Yeah.

How do people engage with you? You've got a lot of stuff out there, a lot to offer. Congregations and synods and, and shoot, I'm sure it's not limited churches. What, what sort of ways can people interact with you? Where, where should they go to to get more information, that sort of thing.

Yeah. So if you go to our website, it's just move culture.com just moveculture.com you can go on there and then contact us. And we, you know, the things we've been doing right now this season, we're involved with these, obviously these longer term consulting projects around intercultural development. But also, you know, one time kind of keynotes like, like I mentioned faith, you know, senate assemblies and fall theologicals and things like that. But then we also work with non profits and we do intercultural development assessments. But you could actually get, get an assessment and say, you know, how is my community doing in terms of how we're responding to cultural similarity and difference? And, and it kind of gives you a score and then it gives you a developmental plan that's kind of catered towards your, towards your next developmental, developmentally appropriate opportunities. And so, so that's that one. And then the other thing, two more things I'm going to plug just because you asked me, is I'm a part of a group called White Men for Racial Justice. And this is a group that was started in 2020 by a couple of guys that were just white dudes trying to show up and didn't know how to do it. And one of their black female colleagues was like, hey, where are your guys? Like, you know, people of color are here, women are here, but we're like white men, especially professional age white men. And, and so they were challenged and they started this group. And so they, they host these both national foundations courses as well as local. And so, so wmrj.org you can get more information about that. I feel really passionate about that. And then because just, just to hover on that for just a moment here, here's what I want to say to you all, without trying to freak you out too much, is Dylann Roof, that young man who was at that ELCA congregation, I would say, I would dare say that he is in your congregation. There is a Dylann Roof in your congregation who's a lonely young white boy who's 14 years old looking for welcome safety and belonging. And we need to create a culture that can, that can hold him, that can give him a counter narrative of white supremacy, that can give him a narrative of Jesus abolitionism. And so we have to, we have to actively seek to create that culture. It doesn't magically happen. So, so I would say go there. And then White Lutherans for Racial justice is another. I'm on the board of that organization as well. Wlrj.org I believe. No, sorry. White Lutheransforracialjustice.org It's a long one, so those are a few things I wanted to plug. So thanks.

Yeah. And, and if somebody wants to sample your music, we've, we, we learned about your, your liturgy, just liturgy from a congregation that shared that they use it occasionally. Are there samples of that, is there YouTube of that being used anywhere that you know of?

Not that I know of. Honestly, like, liturgy writer is like a side, side, side gig of mine. It's just a hobby that I do. So, so I, you know, if there's more demand, I'd love to keep doing it because it's fun. But, but I, at this point, people could just contact me and I'd be Happy to send it to, to people you could, you know, make a, make a donation to some organization or get, or send me 10 bucks or something. But, but yeah, I, I, I'm happy to share it and have people, you know, use it in whatever way works. And the, the thing about liturgy, you know, it's so contextual. It's like, you know, you're like, well, this was for a specific context. I don't know if it would be helpful for you or not, but take it, make it your own, you know.

You know, Marty Haugen wrote, wrote vespers for, you know, one particular place.

And it, Right.

It's used everywhere.

So. Well, and there is something to that. The, the universal through the particular, you know, like what Richard Roy talks about. Like, I think there is. The world's great truths belong on small stages. So like, there is sometimes, I mean, that, that was kind of what Jesus was for me. It was like kind of that Bartian, like go deeper into Jesus and then it gets more bigger and universal. So sometimes we need that kind of particular context in order to understand the universal. So maybe, maybe it could just be what it is and live out there in the world.

Yeah.

Well, I've always wanted a, A, A Motown liturgy.

I like it because, because that's something

that appeals to a lot of people. But I think maybe, maybe we're to an M and M liturgy.

And so there you go.

You might be able to help us with that.

Yes, yes, I like it a lot. Definitely help with that.

I think, I think Motown would speak to a lot of people. Like, you know, folks that would be, you know, either uncomfortable or just feel they're not equipped or question why, why are we doing a hip hop liturgy? I don't think, you know, I think, I think Motown might be like a, an easier door for them to go through the first time.

Totally. And I think some, you know, some of my pieces are pretty melodic and, you know, there's versions like, you know, when I used to listen, listen to the radio versions of the songs and sometimes they would take the raps out. So we, you know, some people are, do just the melody or the hooks and then leave the raps alone. Which is fine.

Yeah.

I would just say for those that do use it, for those that use any art, let me just say that we want to, I think this is my cautionary for all of you is we have to make sure to contextualize the music and the art. So and, and, and to compensate artists of color especially. So, you know, I would just Say, for white congregations who are like, oh, wait, in the water, this is a great song. Let's, you know, let's throw it up there. Like those. Those songs are instructions to freedom. Literally. These were songs that were sung by enslaved folks to. To help get free. And. And when those become decontextualized, I think it can be pretty dangerous. So I. I would just say to congregations, make sure that when you are using these art pieces, not only should you make sure to at least have some way to explain where they came from, but also if you can either pay some sort of reparative fee to, you know, artists of color or. Or just some way to. To try to keep repairing, because we white folks do have a pretty extractive relationship to black art and to other art forms. And so it's really important to be mindful of that history when we're using art.

Yeah.

That's all.

I'm very appreciative. And, Ben, I wouldn't expect you to keep this in the episode, but I'm very appreciative of Meg, our director of music, who does a fantastic job of. Of just that, explaining, you know, and we. Last time we sang Wade the Water, like last year, for whatever occasion, she stood up first and said, hey, this is where the song comes from. He's waiting. What these lyrics mean.

Yeah.

Good. And I. I really admire her for that. She's very aware of the. The roots of the music that we're performing. You know, some of those roots are grand and glorious, and some of them are. Are painful and tragic and.

Yeah.

And it's all. And they're all worth. They're all worth sharing. Right, Right.

And it's like if I came into your house and I grabbed your. Your great, great, great, great grandma's dish. Right? Antique, you know, I don't know. I remember what they call China. Antique China, whatever. And I was just like, oh, yeah, thanks. Oh. And I just kind of throwing it around and like, oh, drinking it and, you know, without any sort of care for it. You know, I'd be like, hey, I want you to. I want you to know my grandma, she owned this. My great, great, great grandma owned this thing. This is important to me. I want you to, you know, have some reverence and. And understand where this China came from is very important and sacred to me. And I want you to know that, like, I think we. We owe it to. To folks to do that. My friend Jonathan Reinman talks about in worship. He says something old, something new, something familiar, and something from another culture, and I think if we're going to do something from another culture, that we want to do it well, and we want to make sure to, you know, honor the. To. To honor the context out of which it came. So.

Yeah.

Do you have any. Do you have any appearances coming up where people can get to see you? Just know if they're nearby, they can drop in.

Oh, man. Good question. So, you know, I'm trying to think of my next, like, performance. Performance. I'll be in. I'll be in Naperville on May 3rd at Our Saviors in Naperville, Illinois. I'll be in Columbia, South Carolina, on April 26th. And I'll be in. Let's see, those are the two. Two ones that are in the next. Coming up in the next few weeks. And then maybe I'll just see some of you all at your synodical events. That's still where I end up traveling a lot in the Lutheran Church, at least. So.

Awesome.

Awesome. I think, you know, of all the songs that I have heard from you over the years, the one that I hear the most often at, you know, various gatherings is still Citizens with the Saints.

That, oh, yeah.

Piece that you did with Rachel.

That's cool.

That one just. That one just speaks to generations. And. And, you know, it's both.

It.

It's both just got such a draw musically. And the story that it tells, I think people can identify with that. And so it's got a time. Timelessness to it that I think is going to carry on for a good long time. So thank you for that contribution to the music world.

Yeah, yeah, I'm glad. I, I, you know, I think about Rachel, you know, sitting on the. On the back porch with her, holding her baby, writing a song with a guitar in one hand and a baby in another. And. And she just kind of want my. It's kind of like plucking it out. And. And then, you know, lo and behold, it becomes this anthem for the Lutheran church that she sings in front of 40,000 kids. And. And that gets sung all over the world. But, like, But I mentioned that to say that, like, she also, I mean, Rachel, you know, is an independent musician. Like, I am cobbling it together, and I'm just like, where is the justice in this? Like, so this is, again, another plug. Like, please go to Rachel Kurtz dot com. Give her $10. Give us, like, you know, like, because, you know, some of these musicians, John Yasakar and others who have given so much to this church that have written anthems that have been sung at Everybody's. And nobody's trying to drive a Rolls Royce. But, like, some folks really struggle to even pay their bills and, and have contributed so much to the world. And I just think that that doesn't feel just to me that. That some artists who have contributed so much to the world can't even, you know, necessarily support themselves fully. I'm like, let's. Let's create a world in a church where people who contribute in those ways can still, you know, buy Pampers for their babies. So, yeah, so support Rachel curtis.com supports joedavis.com joedavispoetry.com those are a few plugs for my friends who are artists who need to get paid.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for reminding us of the fragility with which some people live. You know, we think that because this, this piece that they've put out in the world, you know, has some level of fame that, you know, the fortune must have come along with it and. And that's not always the case. I know. So, yeah. Thank you.

Thank you.

Well, Dave, thank you for taking the time to be with us today. We really appreciate your. Your time with us. We also really appreciate the work that you have done in so much, so many different forms, all with the same goal of promoting the love of Jesus and the love of neighbor, but in so many different ways. So thank you for being you, man. We appreciate it.

Thanks for having me. This is fun. And I saw the names on there, man. I'm like, I'm sharing the bill with some pretty amazing people. Wow. Pretty cool.

They will all appear. Appreciate that you said that.

Absolutely, yeah. Once again, we want to say one final thank you to Dave Shear for sharing his time to be with us. And we certainly wish him blessings in the ministry that he's engaged in, musical and otherwise. So thanks, Dave, for taking time to be with us today.

And so many links in the episode notes.

Yes, which we are grateful. Main Street Lutherans is hosted by Keith Fair and Ben Fotography. The show is produced by Folk Media Productions. You can find all of our contact information, those handy links, and a transcript in the episode notes. Until next time, go in peace. Serve the Lord.

Thanks be to God.