This is Ben, and this is Main Street Lutherans. Today's gonna be an interesting episode. You're gonna start out with me. Keith is gonna join with an interview here. Let me give you some background on that. And then after the interview is done, we'll do the. The normal closing stuff with just me. So you'll get me for the beginning and end. And Keith in the middle there. So we had an opportunity to talk with someone, Pastor Imad Haddad from. From Jordan, from Amman, Jordan. He is in the States. He's going to be receiving his doctorate in ministry here from United Lutheran Seminary about the same time that you're hearing this. And because we were going to be Talking about the 1989 social message about the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians, and we were going to look at that as a historic document, we wanted to talk about what its effectiveness was, note some things about it. And so we were pursuing some people to talk to about that. And it turns out that Pastor Ahmad Haddad was available for us. And so we took the opportunity and Keith talked with Pastor for a bit. And so that's what you're going to hear today in our next episode. This is episode 36, our next episode, episode 37. We're going to talk about that social message and talk about, in context of what we've learned about the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land and the situation of Palestinians, no matter what their religious identity is that we learn from this episode. And we'll talk about that in depth there in the next episode. And so I'm really looking forward to sharing that. But before that, I'm really excited to share this conversation with you. And so without further ado.

I am today, I am with Pastor Ahmad Hadad, who serves in Jordan, which is adjacent to Israel and Palestine, and is a part of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land, which is a relatively small denomination in that there are about, I think you said six congregations, is that right? Spread out in this region, but in. In places that are familiar to not only Americans, but Christians from around the world as they are, you know, literally in the same locations as places that we know from stories in the Bible. And so we've got this culturally rich and complex and, and ancient yet modern society that you have, you know, lived in your entire life. And, and we. We kind of think of as being someplace else as Americans. Ahmad, thank you so much for taking time to be with me today. You're here today because you're in the process of graduating, is that right? Yes, yes. You're finished.

I'm finished. My Doctor of Ministry and graduating from the United Lutheran Seminary.

Great. I think you said you had started this during the pandemic. Was this just something to fill the time? And actually.

It was, it was a desire to, to study and it just happened to start to, to, to start during the pandemic. And then I took advantage of the pandemic and free time. So we, it all came together.

Wonderful. Well, I'm, I'm happy to be able to take advantage of your presence with us today. We got connected because Ben and I were interested in this topic of the ELCA's social message on the Israeli Palestinian conflict and thought of Speaking with the Reverend Dr. Martin Otto Zimmen, who has spent some time living in that part of the world. And because of his affiliation with United Lutheran Seminary, he said, well, I could do that, but I also know this person who's going to be here, who actually lives there and is going to be here just the same time you're recording. So I want to give a shout out to Martin for connecting us as well. Let's just, let's do this. Tell me a little bit again. We, we spoke before we started recording, but could you, for our audience, tell me just a little bit about yourself, your context, growing up and, and now today?

Yeah, so I, I grew up in, in Beijala, which is about 2 km from Bethlehem. Bethlehem was my backyard. I always, I studied in Bethlehem. I was in part of the boarding school of the Lutheran Church in Dajjala. And then it was through this boarding school and school entirely my whole life I studied in Lutheran schools. Was my gate to, to the Lutheran Church. I, I studied in, in Lebanon. My bachelor of theology in Lebanon. I, I in the Near East School of Theology, Lebanon. Beirut, Lebanon. And I did one year of studies at Southern Seminary when it used to be in South Carolina, Columbia. And now I served in Betsahur. My first call was in Betsahur in Ramallah, my second call. And now I'm serving in Amman, Jordan. This is my third cold. I've been a pastor since 2008 and now I'm happy to serve the church in Amman just to kind of put.

Things in place a little bit. Jordan is to the east of the Jordan River. It is adjacent to Palestine and Israel as well as Syria and Iran, I think Iraq as well. Well, Iraq, not Iran. Yes.

Yeah.

And, and Amman is the largest city in that, in that area. Not only is it the capital of Jordan, it's probably the biggest cityman is.

The largest city in. In. In Jordan. I'm not sure if it's the largest city, probably the large city in the Levant.

Okay.

I'm skeptical to say that, but. Well, I don't want to say something that is wrong, but it is a very fairly large city.

It is a very large city. So you serve in a metropolitan area. All right, tell me about your congregation.

My congregation is. Is a little bit interesting. Not a little bit. Very interesting because 90% of. Of the congregants in the Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Amman are of Palestinian origins. They are either refugees or people who were not able to come back to the country or descendants of refugees. So more than 90% of them are of Palestinian origins, and they still have families in the west bank, some of them in Jerusalem and some of them in Gaza as well.

And so you have your services in what languages?

Of course, we do the service in Arabic. Our mother tongue is Arabic, so we. We pray in Arabic. The Bible is read in Arabic. We sing in Arabic. It's just a normal Lutheran service if there is something like that. And we. We do it in our dream language.

Okay. Yeah. I was. I looked at some photographs from. I. I don't. It was. It was something that Martin sent to me. I can't remember if it was your congregation's website or had some photos. It looked very much like the inside of a Lutheran church in the United States. Yeah. Investments, the altar, everything. It looked could very well have been transported from, you know, a fairly typical Lutheran church in this country as well.

Well, sometimes when I introduce myself, I say I'm. I'm a. I'm a Palestinian Arab Christian Lutheran pastor. So it's part of my identity as a Lutheran pastor. It. It does not feel like something imported or imposed on me, but it's more of. Part of my identity and my skin.

Thank you. Thank you. You mentioned to me before as well that your. The bulk of your family is Catholic, is that right?

Yes.

Okay.

And.

And generationally, speaking, it's just. Has been. That's just part of who your. Your family's identity is. Yes, but not. Not a convert. You had said.

Christianity is not foreign to that area of the world. We were the missionaries who. My ancestors were missionaries who came to Europe to deliver the message of Christ. Yes. We do receive missionaries now in our part of the land, but originally we were the missionaries. And so where it would seem a little bit awkward to me when. When a question is paused. When did you become a Christian? Some people would say Pentecost was my conversion day.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. Ahmad. I would not expect you to be an expert in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land any more than I am on the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. But having said that, can you say anything at all about what the relationship is like between our two denominations?

The. The simple word that. That would describe the. The relationship between the ELCA and the elcjl those are the acronyms, is partnership.

Okay.

We. We accompany each other on the road of living the gospel in our both countries.

Okay. Can you. What kind of form does that partnership take, do you think?

So the ELCA is an important partner. We. We communicate together. We aid each other in the actual living of the church. There are visits, always there are visits between the ELCA and the ECL. There is a support. Some of it is financially, but a lot of it. Most of it is spiritually of being an ally that speaks for justice and truth in both our countries. So it is a relation that again I would use again the word accompany. We are in accompaniment with each other. So it's not only giving, receiving relationship, but is always giving, giving relationship.

Thank you. There had been at one point there was a sort of a body within the ELCA that was called Peace not walls.

Yes.

That has somewhat recently, 2023, that was renamed to Samud. Could you. Could you tell us what Samud means? Why that word was chosen for. For this effort?

Sumud is steadfastness to be resilient, to keep in place, to stand still. Let's be a little bit more Lutheran. Here I am. That is Sumud.

Okay.

That's who I am. If 1. It is a word that speaks to. To the identity of our Christian message in a place that is suffering justice. So Samud is. Here we are. We will speak the truth no matter what.

Okay.

Peace, not walls was long in the older days was because the walls were built between. In the one country that became. In the one land that became two, that became two countries. This wall was built. So the idea was we want peace. We do not want to separate people from each other. And hence the idea was peace, not wars. From the early 2000s, I think. And as it continues to injustice continues to be a wound in our sides as a church, as a nation. Now we speak about Sumud. So we will continue to preach justice and peace.

As someone who has lived the bulk of your life where you had. What would you describe for a person like myself who has. Who has never been to the Holy Land as sort of the. You know, what we Know what we see on the news. We know about the political football that gets passed around in our own country regarding Israel and Palestine and the conflict there, and certainly the ways that it plays out in the politics of other nations in the region. As someone who is a person and not a politician, how would you describe the situation that you have lived adjacent to or even in your entire life? And I know that's a very complex question. I'm sorry for that, But.

I don't know if I'm not a politician. I'm. I live politics. Politics is part of my life. Yes, I'm a pastor. I'm not. I'm somebody who, who's polit. Who. Who lived a life that is. Really suffered from. From politicians. So when we. When I say I'm a politician, I say I'm a pastor who wants to take care of my people, even if I have to touch base in the politics. So when I do politics, I do not do politics for the sake of politics, but for the sake of pastoring and being with the people, because everything you say in our part of the world turns into politics. So, yeah, I'm not a politician, but I have to deal with politics, otherwise I will be a stranger to my context where I serve.

All right, it's.

I know it's. I hope I'm not offending in, in a way.

No, I, I think. I, I think that's a very helpful clarification. I appreciate that.

But, you know, the thing is, when you, as, as somebody from the Western world, hear about our country, I, I would really appreciate that you ask more. And that is, That's. That's why I'm happy that we're doing this, this interview. Because when people ask more, they, they come to learn more. They come to. To see a different side to the narrative than the news agency would put. Not everything sells in the news. They look for something that is attractive in the news, but not everything is attractive. And the story that we need to tell is a story of humanity, human beings who live and suffer. It's a story of a land that is being turned because of injustice and because of greed and because, most importantly, because people want to misuse and abuse our book, our Bible or faith. So to take it short, please keep asking more. Please come and visit and try to keep an open mind when, when you talk to Palestinians and when you talk to Israelis at the same time. Because we are human beings who deserve life. Our land is a land that deserves justice.

Thank you. Thank you. So you mentioned injustice and greed. What you Know, I guess one, one question I might ask in a naive sort of way, is greed over what, what is it that, what is the, the thing that people are looking to have more of than others?

Land.

Land.

Land and, and rights. Okay, so you know, the. This very small piece of land that is called Israel and Palestine, that was made into two countries. Israel and Palestine has limited resources. Greed is one thing that drives a lot of tension, not only in the land we call Israel Palestine, but also in the Middle East. Greed over water, for example. That is as a person, the Oslo Accords, if I may go back to the Oslo Accords, it gave me one fourth of what a human, normal human would need of water a day. So, and even this we were not given. So this is one, one example injustice over a right of. To choose the place where to live, to move freely in the one land, to be able to marry whomever I want without the idea. Will we be able to live together? Will our different identities, Jerusalem or West bank, separate us? Will our children have the right to live and have an identity? Those are questions that the news do not care to ask about. And it's a question of justice. It's a question fight.

The news portrays really not only geographically, but, but socially and even familially that Israelis and Palestinians are, are separate, segregated peoples. It doesn't sound to me that. That you would say that is true at a, at a social level. Is that, is that a fair statement?

We are forced to do so. We are forced to be apart by, at some point, by law, it is. It is forbidden for us to be together. And at. And the other point, it is because of the political situation, because of the war, because of the occupation. If I may, if myself, we are set apart. There are a lot of people on both sides who would. Would love to speak together as long as justice is served for both.

As.

Long as we are on equal stance as citizens. Not one first class and the other is second or fifth. So yes, there are people who would like to come together, but the situation really separates us and the occupation separates us.

I heard someone in an interview maybe a year ago, they were speaking. They were, they were speaking about. So yes, after, after the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, but. But not all that. Recently, maybe a year ago, I heard someone speaking about the situation in Palestine and Israel and the situation formerly in South Africa during apartheid and, and said that he as a person and I. Sorry, this is only coming to my mind now and I can't remember all the details in the context of this person's background and thought. But he said as a person, for the longest time he had believed that in Israel and Palestine there needed to be what gets called by the news, a two state solution. That these two individual countries needed to find a way to be separate and yet coexist side by side. He said that upon reflection of the situation of apartheid in South Africa, he no longer believed that was the case. That they needed one state where Jews and Muslims and Christians, Palestinians and Israelis could cohabitate and find a way to be at peace. Truly side by side as one nation is one of those insane sounding to a person living in Jordan as you do.

No, it's not. It's not an insane. Actually, I, I would not say the. The. The case of living under a part height apartheid system is started in 2003. 23. No, no, it is, it is the case long ago. Actually it was the case even by the time of Oslo in the early 90s. It is, it's. There is a case of an apartheid, there's a case of occupation. Now the attempts of solutions have been always attempts of on paper solutions, not on ground solutions. I'm not sure if this, this is some sounds clear to you because it. People get together in a room like I'm sitting here facing each other and they write a solution, but they do not live it. Now, a two state solution is wonderful if you find a way to live it. If you find a way that both will have sovereignty, both will have equal standings, both will have the right to exist, not one state submits to the other. So yes, I'm for that. If we have this and on the other side, I will go for a one state solution. If states that a Palestinian and Israeli will be equal citizens will have equal rights under one same government that is equally constitutes Palestinians and Israelis. So to be honest, from my own stance, whatever the solution is, do not give me a paper solution. Give me a solution that is viable, that will give justice to everybody in that land.

I probably should have asked you this question earlier, but I'm just curious. As a person living in Jordan, Palestinian person living in Jordan and your family, you said is still in Banjala, correct? Practically speaking, what is it like if you want to go visit them or they want to come visit you or what. What sort of travel process or hurdles are there for you to be able to do that?

My short answer is when I travel to, to the west bank, to Palestine, I pray the Lord's Prayer in different language. So instead of lead us not to temptation, I Said lead us not into humiliation because traveling through the bridge between Jordan and Palestine is nothing but humiliation. My mother just traveled today to be with my family and I was talking to her just this morning and asked how was it? And she says, well, today it was easy. Which means that there was not much of questioning, there was not much of humiliation. It should not be the case of easy or hard. It should be a case of a right to be able to travel and to visit family and to be with people. I do not care. I, I do not mind if there is of course, checking for security. And that is normal wherever you go, as long as it's done in a, in a respectable way. There is no need for me as a person to be stripped, checked when I go across the border. And this is not something that somebody told me. I had to go through this a couple of times in the last year. So it goes. So you pass the Jordanian borders and then you come to the Israeli border and then you go to the Palestinian, if you want to call it a border, or Palestinian police to be verified as well. You pass through three border controls and the one that controls everything is the one in the middle. So if at one point they chose to close, to close, I will be either returned to Jordan or returned to Palestine, whatever my situation is. I don't know why borders do close. Why do I have to, to, to, to put my travel time according to half day or, or a full day from 8 to 4 o' clock. What you can just. I'm just traveling, right? I'm not, I'm not doing anything else but traveling, right?

Yeah, I think my wife just spent 10 days in the Czech Republic. She was in Prague on a, on a pleasure, just a trip with friends. And they also went to Austria, to Vienna for a couple of days. And she said on the train they're traveling from one country to another. And she says it, it boggles her mind that she doesn't have to show documentation, paperwork, permission. You know, her, her passport was only stamped in Germany when she flew into Europe from the United States. And then she flew from Germany to the Czech Republic and you know, her passport does not get stamped. She goes from Czech Republic to Austria and back. Her passport does not get stamped. And that's just that, that surprised her. And, and of course what you're describing is the, the 180 degree opposite of, of that experience.

It's, it's easier for me when I have a visa to travel to Europe or to the States than to travel between Jordan and, and Palestine.

Wow.

It. At points, it may be even less time to travel to, to, to Europe or to the States than traveling to, to between Jordan and Palestine.

Wow. And. And if it weren't for the checkpoints, what would be the drive time between Manjala and Amman?

I would say about two hours, three hours, two hours, two and a half, maximum.

Okay, but you're talking about this being a, an all day affair, getting from one to the other.

Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah.

So.

Oh my goodness. So I know that you said before we were speaking that you were. Had not. We're not familiar with the, the ELCA social message on the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And until fairly recently, you know, I have to say I myself wasn't either. But that's why Ben and I decided to record this episode. But I want to read to you one, one brief quote from it. As I mentioned. These are always very sort of high level, not very high level documents, you know, meant to sort of frame how we think and give us some background, not to give necessarily specific policy points or directions either for the church or for individual Christians or for government, et cetera. So this document, which was adopted by the ELCA in 1989, it's one of the oldest social messages we have. Says just two sentences I'd like to read. We recognize that resolving such a deep and complex conflict will involve lengthy, sustained negotiations. Yet we are encouraged by the spreading recognition that perpetuation of the status quo will be increasingly detrimental to both sides as well as to world peace. And it struck me as I was reading that again this morning that, you know, in 1989 there were folks who were saying, things are getting so bad now they can't but get better soon. And here we are in 2025 and that doesn't seem to have happened. And I wonder if, you know, if this document had not been adopted in 1989, would we even, would we even write it today? You know, would we even have. I think we were assuming 30 some years ago that this would have been resolved by now, and clearly it hasn't.

You know, the thing is, I'm trying to be political now.

Okay?

The thing is, what words do we use? What thoughts do we have? I don't think it's a conflict. We keep to. I do sometimes use the word conflict. It is not a conflict. It is an occupation. It is somebody have to be to submit and be subdued to the other. We should not look at it as a conflict. We should look at it as a matter of justice. We will keep writing policies and we will Keep writing. Yeah, letters. But the only way to stop this and finally have a solution is to address the matter directly without trying to please. To please this side or that side. The thing is, we had hope in 1989. You said that they wrote it that time there was the hope of the Oslo Accords. It was just arising. And yes, it was time for a better life. I think if today we have to write something else or if the ELCA have to look at its policy and rewrite it, there needs to be different, different rhetoric to the, to the policy. And I really like that any thing that is written would be justice driven rather than, let me say, like balance driven injustice. There is nothing balanced. There is either you say yes or.

No.

Injustice does humanity for everybody. So if we want to write a policy today, we need to use a total different rhetoric and we need not to be shy of calling black as black or white as white.

Okay.

I don't know if this answered your question, but it does, it does.

Thank you. And prompts me to think another question. And this is almost, I'm curious about this. I mean, you and I are two Christians speaking to each other from different parts of the world. But, but you as a resident of Palestine yourself formally and still Palestine adjacent, you know, in, in America, where Christianity is the predominant, if not religion of the land, at least sort of the cultural identity of many of many Americans, I think that Americans tend to think that this is a religious conflict in Israel and Palestine between Jews and Muslims. Is that, is that true? Is that accurate?

Not only Americans. I think many parts of the world would think that. And I think there are people who would do everything to cloth that, that struggle to be a religious struggle. Because I would say again, religion is used, abused and misused in our part of the world. So the struggle between, between Palestinians and Israelis is not a religious one. Although the Bible is used to claim the political rights. It's a political struggle over. Not religious facts, but over a land, a piece, A land that has people living in. Is not a struggle that started in 1948. It's a struggle that started long with. You can go in, in the 80s, in, in the 1800s, 1800s, even before that. It is a struggle of some people who see, who say we have the right to some to, To a land that God. And now we bring God into the picture. God promised us. It's. And then we as Christians will be the problem. Because if it is a Jewish Muslim struggle, what do we do with the Christians? Let's kick them out. I as A person have the right to say, I am a Palestinian, I was born in Palestine. I hold a Palestinian identity. I'm a citizen of that country, and I'm allowed to say I have a country. And when I say I. I want the freedom for my country, it is not a religious religion is used, is shoved into the situation to claim rights. And I tell you, unfortunately, unfortunately, both sides use the same rhetoric. And I'm against using religion as the rhetoric for the struggle.

Pastor Imad, thank you so much for taking time to be with me today. For two people who did not know each other before we began this conversation, I very much appreciate you being open to meeting with me today and to speaking. I'd like to end with this last question. What can American Christians, whether it's the elc, let's say the elca, what can ELCA Lutherans do to support and promote peace in your home?

We are. We are churches. So do not stop praying. That's one. And when I say pray, it's not only. It's not only talks. For me, prayer is action. So speak and do learn the truth from people. Speak with people of the land. I do not care if you speak with. Well, you need to speak with Palestinians and Israelis. You need to see the truth for yourselves. Do not be more Palestinian than the Palestinians or more Israeli than Israelis. Be a person who seeks justice, people who see a church who seeks justice. And in that, do not be balanced. Be. Be truthful to. To the calling of following the gospel of Christ, which. Which seeks justice for. For all humans. And do not be afraid to visit. This is. I think this is very important. Your. Your visit to the land is. Is a crucial learning journey. And then it's a crucial sentence. Claim that we are here to be with you when you are under struggle. Not to be imposing on you, but to be with you in understanding and working towards life in fullness.

Thank you for that. And again, thank you for your time today.

Thank you.

Congratulations on completing your doctorate and safe travels to you both here in the States and back home again soon.

Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. And thank you for the conversation of this morning.

Absolutely.

I, too, would like to thank Pastor Haddad for sharing with us what it's like to be a Lutheran in Palestine and being Palestinian and the experience there. I do wish all the best to him and his community. This leads us to our catechism questions. Our last episode, our catechism question was Martin Luther disliked the idea of this new church body being named after himself. What name did he prefer instead? And the correct answer is Evangelisqueirch or Church of the Gospel instead of the Melanchthonist Church or the Church for Saints and Sinners or Keith's favorite, those heretics who got themselves excommunicated. So there you go. The Evangelic Church Kirch. I can't say it very well. I did not pass German twice. All right, so our past our catechism question for this episode is related to our topic for this episode in the next. And so the question is, what are the ways to get involved in advocating for justice through the elca? We have options of Join the ELCA E Advocacy Network, invite your officials to visit your congregation's ministry or project. Third is if you have a Lutheran state public policy office in your state, get involved in that ministry. Or is it contact the AELCA advocacy staff when you or a group from your congregation visit Washington, D.C. or is it all of the above and many, many more? All right, so you can respond to that or you could do all those things. You can get to us through our email, social media, and even our phone number, which will be in the episode notes. And this is where I tell you that Main Street Lutherans is hosted by Keith Fair and Ben Fot, and the show is produced by Phott Media Productions. Find all of our contact information, links and a transcript in the episode notes. Until next time, go in peace, serve the Lord, and thanks be to God.