This is Ben and this is Keith.

And this is Main Street Lutherans. And today we are going to have with us a wonderful guest, the Reverend Carla Christopher, who is on staff, well, in lots of places, including the Synod where I'm at St. Matthew in York, Pennsylvania, the Lower Susquehanna Synod. And we'll let her introduce herself in a moment. But we wanted to talk a little bit about somewhat a follow up from some previous conversations that we've had regarding the elca. And we had an episode entitled why We Welcome Everyone. We've also talked a little bit here and there about reconciling works and reconciling Christ status for congregations, which is a place that St. Matthew, where I serve, just officially became an RSC congregation back in January. And Ben, I think you said where you're at, you guys are just starting that process, is that right?

Yeah. I don't know how far into it we're at. I was recruited to be part of the group and then they didn't ask me to do it. So I'm sort of out of the loop on it. I think my sort of half professional as the leading assisting minister and the fill in the presiding person when Karm's gone. I've sort of been left out of a lot of loops because I'm in that sort of semi space between being staff and not being staff. So I don't know how far we are. I know we voted on those things on the first steps at least. And to be honest, I don't know anybody in the congregation that doesn't think that we already are, at least in form, reconciling in Christ or just open to folks of all types of.

And we had some similar reactions to that at St. Matt's in case you don't remember or didn't know. Reconciling in Christ is this designation that some ELCA congregations pursue, which, you know, long story short, says that it is a congregation that is intentionally open and welcoming and affirming for folks from the LGBTQIA community and also committed to anti racism work in the congregation's ministry. You know, it goes deeper and broader than that, but that's. That's it in a nutshell. And so the reason that we wanted to bring Pastor Carla on was to speak specifically to the. The scriptures, the sort of hot button scriptures that often get named either either by folks coming out of a conservative background as to say this is. This is why being gay or being trans is a sin issue, or from the other side of the fence that have asked, well, you know, I don't believe that being gay or trans is a sin issue, but I don't know necessarily what to do with this passage of the Bible. And there's, you know, for those of us that have been in these circles, there's, there's three or four different places that kind of get pointed to. And, you know, it's already problematic to be taking scriptures out of context and using them in this sort of salad bar kind of way. But anyhow, we wanted to have someone that can speak much more intelligently than either of us on this matter. And so, Pastor Carlo, welcome to the show. Why don't we start by having you introduce yourself just a little bit and we'll, we'll go from there.

I love that today is a day that someone who is part of the LGBTQIA community and someone who, who is also a non white Lutheran and someone who is ordained woman can all be on something called the Main Street Lutherans and actually have that be relevant to our polity and to the work that we're doing. So there's something that feels really special about being able to be here today. And in terms of why I am getting to join, as well as being able to wave my rainbow flag fragrance flagrantly and flagrantly on the Internet, I actually am here. And this is important to note that it is not about picking a token or someone to speak on behalf of an entire group that I am synod staff in Lower Susquehanna and Delaware, Maryland Synods, and also teach LGBTQIA cultural competency with Kindling faith at United Lutheran Seminary and with Region 8, and have consulted with about a quarter of our synods across the country in helping develop justice ministries, and have worked with a lot of our seminaries on developing classes and programming around this. And that's not about qualification. It's about the ethical treatment of marginalized people rather than tokenizing or perhaps forcing into a role of education that an individual didn't consent to or being in a place where you have to justify who you are so that you can actually serve and exist there. In this case, I have chosen to be an educator. I've chosen to speak about my experiences because I believe it's part of my faith call. And so that's why it became both authentic and comfortable to say, hey, have you come in and talk to us? Not because you're justifying your right to be part of the ELCA or be ordained, but because you're an educator who has given that informed consent around sharing your story to folks who would love to know More. And I really respect our fabulous and fearless hosts for making sure that that was clear before I was here. So I wanted to make sure that we shared that with all of you as well.

Thank you.

Thank you, Carla.

Yeah. Yeah. So the clobber passages, you know, when we were doing research on this, we've been talking about this for a few weeks, and one of the things that came up is a movie, and we didn't talk about this in our preparation, a movie that talks about mistranslation and how the RSV version, the translation of the Bible, interpreted words differently than, say, the Bibles that were available in Lutheran's time. So the German translations, for instance, didn't translate the words the same way that we did in, I think that's 1946, when the RSV comes out, that they specifically added language that added homosexuality to the Bible words and that. How much of that is the case with these clobber passages?

Well, it is absolutely true that the word homosexual or homosexuality did not exist in translations of the Bible that were commercially available before the year 1946, which is where that documentary, 1946, the mistranslation that shaped a culture, came from. The word that is most frequently translated, particularly in the six passages that are called the Klaber passages, is, and I freely admit I'm probably butchering my ancient Greek here, but a Seneca toy, which is a reference to a very specific cultural role of a male, either captive of war, some level of indentured servant, or enslaved person who is in sexual service to the person who owns them. And that this was a cultural norm in the time of the Roman Empire, when a lot of the texts were written down in the early church and when some of those scrolls would have been produced, this would have been a normal thing to see in society. And as we are writing down liberation for enslaved people, and as we're writing down care and ethical treatment, sharing of resources, there were a lot of behaviors that were seen as not wanting to be uplifted or accepted as the norm. And especially once we started editing versions of the Bible in the Middle Ages and coming in later, that there were a lot of social norms of that time that also went into, okay, let's sit around at the Council of Trent and decide what we're keeping in and what we're putting out. And so these passages that talked about maintaining more of a pure and ethical style of behavior for that time and that place were cast out. If they seem like they were affirming of that and they were kept. If it seemed like, it was saying, no, we don't want these behaviors left over from Roman Empire days, from, you know, indulgent first few hundred common era years. And that understanding that we're talking about indulgent or even exploitive behaviors, along with beliefs of certain sexual behaviors, were all part of the same conversation. It was in 1946 that the specific change to the word homosexual was made. It wasn't predator. It wasn't sex slave. It wasn't young male captive. It wasn't male prostitute. It was now just homosexual. And the broadening of that term as this is the definition of what is forbidden really rose during the late 1940s, 50s, 60s, until the LGBTQ kind of revolution and forward legal movement in the 70s. And then, like, let's readdress, that came out afterwards. But, yeah, there are. There are six passages specifically that people refer to as the clobber passages, because those are the six passages in the scripture that directly and specifically address the subject of homosexuality, or at least since 1946, name homosexuality. And they're in Genesis 19, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, or in Leviticus 18. And in Leviticus 20, there's references to not lying with a male as one lies with a female, not dressing in the clothing of another gender. And then there's some New Testament texts, like in Romans 1, about men, with men committing indecent acts and giving up their natural function. First Corinthians 6 that names fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, and then also homosexuals, before going into naming thieves and drunkards and the people that were not to be deceived by because they won't inherit the kingdom of God. And then first Timothy, chapter one, which talks about the law not being made for the righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, such as people who kill their fathers and mothers, murderers, immoral men, kidnappers, liars, and also homosexuals. So the clobber passages are called that because it's not just even talking about homosexual behavior as prohibited, but it is associating homosexual people with murderers and kidnappers and drunkards and just describing very immoral and horrible individuals who are dangers to society, who are predators, who are not to be trusted. And so to use this passage, is not just an opening point for discussion, but it's seen as something that actively harms, that strikes, that hits, that causes pain, that causes spiritual, emotional, or physical damage, that has even justified violence or harm, as well as exclusion from church. So these six passages in particular, when used to defend an anti LGBTQIA perspective are seen as clobbering the marginalized person, the LGBTQIA person, hurting or excluding them deliberately. And that's where that terminology came from.

All right, thank you both for identifying those passages in particular and then also identifying the ways that they have been manipulated, both linguistically in. In our translation history, which, you know, I know we're going to come back to, but also then socially, you know, how people have been attacked, demeaned, excluded with them. So how then do we faithfully not only respond to that injustice, but then also how do we faithfully interpret these scriptures? And I don't know if you want to approach them as a whole to start with or kind of one or two at a time, or just give us a sampling. You know, whatever you think would be most edifying to us would be great. How do we approach, you know, how do we respond to folks who lift up these scriptures problematically, again, either whichever side of, say, the social issue of LGBTQ rights they may be? How do we faithfully respond to people who raise questions about these scripture passages?

Well, I think, as particularly Elca Lutherans, we have three really great tools that immediately pop to mind, the first of which is how do Elca Lutherans interpret Scripture? We recognize the Bible as the inspired word of God, as a means of grace, as a historical and contextual document that, yes, God reaches us through, but that is not a conversational transcript. So we know because, as intellectuals who prioritize learning and study, that, yes, this is a book that has been translated multiple times, translated back, and translated again. So the importance of studying and looking into what is the meaning, the heart, the intention of the Scripture, as well as its literal meaning is key to us understanding. And also then praying through the Scripture and asking it to speak to us, asking the Holy Spirit to guide us in our response. And so we can look back as theologians and say we address Scripture with a couple of very significant popular lenses. There's the apologetics lens, where we explain apologetically. Let's tell you exactly what this means and how it translates and why it means this historically and according to translation. And then there's also what we call liberation theology, which is recognizing that the Scripture is a means of grace and that there must be good news in this document. It is the good news for God's people. Now, that doesn't mean it's the permission for all things. It means that there's something that can lead you closer, closer to Christ in these words. And so from an apologetic standpoint, we can look at Genesis 19 and talk about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. And we can say, well, what is the intention behind this passage? Based on its context and on the cultural values of the time. The emphasis on this story is actually about hospitality. It is about who is invited in, who is excluded, how are visitors treated and received. It was prioritized as a tale not to lift up what types of sexual activities are acceptable or not, but how you treat and welcome guests the same way. There's countless other verses about welcoming the stranger, about providing safe spaces, opening your home, offering food, clothes, and authentic welcome. So to focus on, to center and to translate this into references that are about physical sexual acts as opposed to uplifting, that this is about the hospitality that is core to the Genesis journey and how people are received when they travel to different lands and the seeking of welcome and safety in different lands that we move into in Exodus. To focus and to think that homosexuality is what is supposed to be read into the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah doesn't actually match up with how most theologians have historically looked at what's especially important about this passage. Now, both of these passages in Leviticus are actually taken from a much larger cluster of prophetic prohibitions about mixing. This is where the not mixing linen, fabric and cotton and silk, this idea of dressing according to the ways of tradition, according to how we dressed historically in our cultural land. Before our temple was destroyed, we had to leave our land and find safe haven living among other cultures with different languages and practices, where now we have our children and our younger generations intermarrying, intermingling, intermixing with people from other cultures. And there was a significant threat to the preservation of Judaism as it was at the time. So these prohibitions have been studied and interpreted and looked at and cross referenced. And it is absolutely believed by a significant number of theologians and professors that this is, again, not about homosexuality. It's not about sexual behavior. It's about the elders of the community who serve as teachers and mentors, who are trying to make sure that the young people in the community, those who are of working age and those who are of school age and are getting mentorships, apprenticeships, who are looking for partners and spouses, that they are staying focused on the traditional ways as opposed to assimilating with the normal behaviors of the cultures in which they are staying, because there's a desire intensely to rebuild the temple, to return to the homeland, and to reclaim a certain level of the centrality of the historical Jewish culture.

We're not That's a theme throughout humanity, right?

Absolutely. It's a theme throughout humanity. This is not about who's having sex with who in a certain way. It's one item in a list. And quite frankly, if you are eating the animals of the land with the animals of the sea, the meat and the milk. Right. All these things that even the most conservative of Christians have said. Yeah, that's not actually something that is still core to being a follower of Jesus or honoring our Jewish roots and traditions. We're recognizing that those were practices that actually had practical roots, like don't eat things likely to spoil before refrigeration. Right. But that. That has nothing to do with what we are focusing on in terms of grace, salvation, and transformative healing in this present time. And it's likely not what was meant at the time as the enduring message of the passage. And so it's the same with these ideas around what was homosexuality supposed to mean or represent in Leviticus? It was about the focus of marrying a woman from your tribe, preserving family lines and maintaining culture for the return of a pure bloodline and a unified community for the rebuilding of the temple and the preservation of our genetic and cultural heritage. To use it and weaponize it against LGBTQ people is missing the point of some really rich and powerful cultural history.

Yeah.

So I do think that scriptural interpretation, apologetics, and good theology are ways that we can address all of these. And then also looking at the liberation theology, what are the messages that encourage us to learn differently? One of my favorite passages in the Bible is the Ethiopian eunuch, which is often used as a trans liberation scripture. Right. That's from Acts 8, where Philip is zapped to the middle of nowhere and ends up encountering an Ethiopian eunuch. So a gender minority, someone who would not have been allowed into the holy of Holies, would not have been allowed to enter into the Jewish temples and make sacrifices or meet with the priests, because he's not a real man, because he either does not possess a male member or it has been removed, which was common for male enslaved people and captives of war to prevent them from polluting the bloodline of the culture that they were captured into and worked in. And so this Ethiopian eunuch who worked for Candace, the Queen of the Ethiopians, we don't know why he was a eunuch, but it was enough that according to Jewish law, there's a lot of places and activities he wouldn't have been allowed to participate in at the time. But he says to Philip that he's been studying the Prophecies of Isaiah. And he's reading the book of Isaiah in his chariot. And he said, listen, I've been reading this, and my understanding is that I should be a recipient of these prophecies. And he asks Philip. And Philip says, well, actually telling you about Jesus and the Gospel of Jesus, the truth is, you're right, there is nothing in these prophecies and scriptures that says that this full inclusion into the Christian community and the following, the discipleship of Jesus doesn't belong to you. And the Ethiopian stops the caravan and says, there's a fountain over there. Let's go and baptize me right now. And Philip baptizes him and then is transported back to the place where he came. So we have a marginalized person, a sexual minority who practices self advocacy, who specifically addresses that prohibitions towards him having full inclusion into the worship of Christ don't actually apply. Philip agrees, baptizes him, and guess what is the oldest continuously operating Christian community in the entire globe, even now in 2025? The Ethiopian Coptic Christian community, which anecdotally is believed to have been founded by this Ethiopian eunuch from Acts 8. So we have our apologetic theology, our liberation theology, and then we also just have some great ELCA documents and some helpful Bible study resources and theological resources from ELCA organizational partners. So Reconciling Works knows that folks who become RIC or congregations that become RIC often have these questions. So there are downloadable fact sheets and [email protected] that are very accessible and address all of the clobber passages and other passages. And there's also an organization called Extraordinary lutheran ministries or elm.org and they also have similar booklets. Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries refers to congregations that before the decision and the social statement that was interpreted to provide for the ordination of LGBTQIA people. There were congregations that said, well, we're just going to call this person because we see they're calling on them and we externally affirm it. They've internally affirmed it and felt it confirmed by the Holy Spirit. And so there were people that were called extraordinarily ordained. They went through a candidacy process, they went to seminary, they did all the work. And then the congregation said, even if the church doesn't recognize you as a gay person, a lesbian person, bisexual person, a trans person, we recognize you. And so there were congregations that called these leaders. And then when they were extraordinarily ordained, they had a support group, a professional support group, and accompaniment group and accountability group that became Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries. And once the social Statement. Our other helpful document, the Social Statement that Human Sexuality Gift and Trust that was passed by the churchwide assembly to represent the theological and spiritual understandings and best practices of the church. ELM became a social and professional network and provider of resources and study materials as well as support, scholarship and advocacy for LGBTQIA seminarians and rostered leaders. And in first the ELCA and now the ELCA and the ELCIC or the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada. So we can for free download or order a few booklets and get lots of great information from looking at the Human Sexuality Gift and Trust social statement and the materials available specifically addressing the clobber passages and non affirming [email protected] or reconciling works.org three great different sets of tools.

And it looks like we're going to get a revision of the Human Sexuality Statement, I think is that there's some. I think, I think they're small markups. I think it's. It's change of language mostly that that I think is going to be in Phoenix in the summer.

But so the. There is a commission to revisit the language of the Human Sexuality Gift and Trust statement. There is two parts. There are two parts. The first one is the language reconsideration. Because in 2009, when the human Sexuality Gift and trust was voted on by the assembly and passed marriage legal marriage was not yet a national law. So the ELCA settled on a compromise that we called palms publicly accountable long term and monogamous relationships. Recognizing that human sexuality is a gift and it is also a sacred trust in which we must practice accountability, responsibility and care. We will affirm relationships that uplift an honoring of the gift that is sexuality and also a practice of trust and accountability both in public witness and our behaviors within the community and the church and then also towards each other. Now, several years later, we recognize that with marriage being possible, we can include language around marriage instead of you can have a palm that is affirmed by your bishop or your regional body or congregation. And we also have a lot more vocabulary around the understanding of not just gay, lesbian, bisexual and trans folks, but also more awareness around intersex and pansexual and pangender and non binary and different uses of pronouns. And so there is a reconsideration for the updating of best practice language that will come before the churchwide assembly this summer. The second half of the reconsideration is looking at a portion of the Human Sexuality Gift and Trust social statement called Bound Conscience. And Bound Conscience is something that was uplifted and recognized by the assembly. There were certainly plenty of folks, a majority in fact, who believed that we should have a more expansive view on sexuality. But there were also several people who'd been raised believing that the Bible's words and the use of the word homosexuality as a forbidden behavior were indeed valid and faithful responses. And they could not do things in good conscience like marry LGBTQIA people or be part of a congregation that would call an LGBTQIA person rostered leader to be the head of the congregation. And so, rather than saying those leaders needed to leave the church, they wrote in a caveat called Bound Conscience, where you could essentially opt out of accountability to this social statement, saying that your conscience was bound from living into it. Now, that does not include denying the means of grace to individuals, refusing to read the Scripture or allow people to participate in worship, refusing communion. That is not part of Bound Conscience, and that has been misinterpreted in the past to some great harm of individuals. So it's important to lift up, but recognizing the need for a more consistent worldview and something that can unite us across synods and the country. There are certain individuals who are like, I would really prefer us to get rid of this bound conscience caveat and say, this is what the church believes. And there's others that are still very devoted to saying no. We need to make sure it's in our official paperwork that if you are not on board with the interpretation of Scripture that says LGBTQIA people should have full inclusion and affirmation by the church. And I believe that to be a faithful stance, we need to leave in language that allows those individuals to remain part of leadership in the church. And recognizing that was going to take a little more time. Some interviews, some thoughtful prayerful discernment, and a lot of consultation with experts and outside sources, theologians, fellow denominations, et cetera. There was the determination that three additional years would be taken to do that work, and then the decisions that come out of that consideration will be presented to the churchwide assembly in 2020.

Yes, we as a conversation going, we as Lutherans really do like to talk and talk some more. Yeah, consider and ponder and listen. And, you know, I'm not knocking that, but yeah, I, I, I, I can hear how some folks get frustrated with what, what they perceive as a, either a lack of action or a really slow response to question and challenge.

What did Martin Luther King say about the moderate Christian right letter from a Birmingham jail? He was not in favor of how quickly we drag our feet and we don't Make a stand. That's my own personal social commentary there. But, but I think it, I think it rings pretty, pretty hard right now.

No, he did. He said, I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the white citizens counselor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative peace, which is the absence of tension. And I think that while they are very different struggles and there is a difference between racial justice and LGBTQIA justice, there is an awareness with marginalized people that when you are told to wait after saying, I am experiencing active harm, there is a message that intentionally or unintentionally feels is being sent about how much you actually matter to the community. And I do believe that that is not the intention of taking more time, but I do believe that with the statistics that are available on websites like the Trevor Project, which is one of the largest gatherers of statistics through peer vetted and peer reviewed research around mental health challenges and suicide prevention for LGBTQIA plus youth, and also the hrc, which is the human rights campaign that also has a whole section on faith survey data, there's every bit of evidence that the amount of harm, the mental health challenges, the raise in addiction, self harm, attempted or completed suicide, and other mental health challenges, as well as spiritually fully separating from faith communities, lowered self esteem. A lot of different challenges come from receiving negative messaging or culturally incompetent treatment. Just no awareness of the issues that are faced by that community in society, and no relevant pastoral care or support available if folks do need help from their faith community. That drastically rises when, especially a young person, but also adults are not given the opportunity to have support or feel like they have meaning in their faith community. And so I understand that we want to get this right. But I'm not just a pastor and a trainer. I'm a survivor of something called conversion therapy, where when I was 18, when I told my Bible study leader that I think I have a crush on a girl, instead of receiving even an invitation to pray together, I was sent to a camp and held to the floor of a darkened room while people tried to exorcise the demons out of me. And that was the only experience that I had as an LGBTQ person in church, which means I left it for 10 years and could not walk across the threshold of a congregational building without palpitations and cold sweats. And it took countless years and episodes of compassion and times of prayer and learning and studying before I could even come back into a church. And that's a core reason of why I am a pastor in one now, is because I don't want any child understanding that God doesn't love them, that they are beyond God's love and God's worth and God's inclusion. And so doing the work of educating, of teaching cultural competency, of helping people understand the importance of being thoughtful in their faith, conversations with LGBTQIA people who are told some very violent things and subject to some very violent actions and told that it's being done in Christ's name, we need to understand that we have a calling to show that there are other ways to live out our faith, no matter what our belief is. And that's why I do what I do and why I will keep doing it and keep inviting people into the conversation. Let's talk about this scripture. Let's look at the importance of spaces for faith discernment for LGBTQ people and their families. Let's recognize that according to the latest Pew survey data and research, almost 50% of young people that are Gen Z right identify as something other than heterosexual cisgender as straight. And I'm in alignment with the gender that I was assigned at birth. Almost 50%. So if almost 50% of the next generation of future church leadership doesn't feel safe coming to church and at least having people open to listening to their perspective and prioritizing them, and they also can't bring their friends into that space because folks go where their friends and family members can go. Where do we think we're going to be as the church? That's why we need to learn to have the conversation now. We don't have another 50 years to put it down the line and see what shakes out in terms of societal norms. Because Rainbow folks are here now and we're looking for churches. And if people are not interested in having the conversation about how to welcome us, they're still having the conversation on whether or not to welcome us, then we're not going to keep knocking on closed doors.

So for that, that kid, I say that as a 50 year old, but, you know, somebody who's in their mid-20s who's looking for a church and sees, you know, churches with their welcome flag, how, how can they feel safe making that step into a congregation? What are the best strategies for someone in that circumstance and then vice versa? How does a church like my little church in Southgate, Michigan, how do we best communicate how authentic our welcome is when everyone can go down to the Staples and run off a banner that says everyone's welcome here. How do we make that authentic?

There's actually some really great survey data around that. It turns out that what folks are looking for is one come to where we feel safe. Don't start by inviting us to come to a place that historically has not been or is not reliably and consistently safe across all the folks who are under the banner of Christianity. So doing things like having a table at a pride festival, going to LGBTQIA support groups, contacting and having meetings with local prides or LGBTQ resource centers, having yourself added to websites or church cooperative groups. In Lancaster, Pennsylvania, one of the areas where I've served, there's an alliance of open and affirming churches of all denominations that work together called Embrace. And so people can go to the Embrace website and see who's a part of that group. Reconciling Works actually keeps a list of congregations that have voted to become Reconciling in Christ and fulfilled the requirements that include education around LGBTQ cultural competency, voting, and agreeing upon a Reconciling in Christ statement, a welcome statement that openly and publicly affirms that inclusion. And also have committed to a willingness to make sure that LGBTQ weddings can be held in their sanctuary, that they'd call an LGBTQ pastor, that they will engage in active support, donation, and education around LGBTQ issues, not just as a one and done but but as an ongoing commitment to continue to reinforce and to grow into and integrate that work. Yes, Absolutely. Go to where folks are and make yourself a known and safe presence there. Invest in what's important to them and where LGBTQIA folks have historically been safe, and then also do an internal audit. Look at your website. Do you have a rainbow flag or a Reconciling in Christ logo on your website? Or do people have to do a deep dive to find some ambiguous, open and affirming language? It needs to be obvious. Look at the photos. Do you only have pictures of heterosexual couples with their 2.5 kids and maybe a puppy dog? Or do you have lots of different family configurations depicted on the website? Look at the materials you're using. Who are you uplifting as sermon quotes or as meditation quotes, motivational quotes on T shirts on different pages on the website? That book study that you have a different book every month? Are any of the topics LGBTQIA centered or affirming? Or do you have LGBTQIA authors that you're uplifting? Look at the programming. If you're celebrating Mother's Day or Father's Day if you're uplifting Veterans Day, are you also making sure that your congregation includes in the prayers or in special services? Transgender Day of Remembrance in November, Pride Month in June, National Coming Out Day in October. Those culturally relevant celebrations show a lot about cultural competency and probably the number one most requested thing that shows up in multiple surveys and that comes up when I'm working with congregations or in listening sessions with LGBTQIA folks. Pronouns being named, used and respected, as well as gender inclusive language. If we're always greeting brothers and sisters, we're not naming non binary people. Making the switch to welcome my siblings in Christ, welcome beautiful children of God. If we're having coffee with caretakers instead of, you know, mom's breakfasts and dad's breakfast or daddy daughter dances. If we are having groups and retreats that are focused on interest rather than someone's gender, if God is he and she and they or them, or if we simply say God instead of his world, it's simply God's world. On email signatures or zoom calls, adding pronouns after the name does a lot to signal that you'll respect someone else's pronouns that you're aware of, that not everybody has a pronoun that you can tell what it is by looking at them. So even on signup forms or registration forms, is it circling he or she, or is the gender a fill in the blank? Or are you not making the assumption and you are actually asking for gender and pronouns and leaving the space for that to be respected, including it on things like name tags or name badges or normalizing having people introduce themselves at the beginning of a meeting by saying, hey, my name's Carla. I use she or they pronouns. And then moving on to, you know, the fun fact or whatever icebreaker question you're doing that makes a huge difference. Just normalize the reality that everyone isn't straight and cisgender and that we're at least going to take the time to ask the question or show that we are aware that folks have lots of different realities, ways of living. And we're not going to assume we know your story without giving you the respect of asking you.

Carla, thank you. Yeah, you've left us with a lot of, a lot of information, a lot of things to ponder and as always, when I listen to you present, always just in awe of your, your presence and your breadth of knowledge and your, your willingness to share. So thank you for, for everything that you have represented to us in this conversation this evening.

It has been so beautiful to be able to just be with colleagues and as a Michigan girl, getting to hear the updates of what's going on in Michigan and just being with people where I could actually bring my authentic self and still show up as a person of faith. It's a gift. And it's a gift that a lot of other people of faith are also looking for. So if we only do in this one hour modeling that we can actually reach out and spend time with folks who may look live or love differently than us, but still find where we have a passion for Christ and for Christ Church in common, then I feel like we've done something that was worth every bit of effort it took. I'm grateful for y'. All.

Well, again, thank you very much.

I think we're going to go ahead and skip our catechism questions for this episode and just wrap it up here. So normally, Carla, what we do is we ask a catechism question, which we take very seriously, but I don't think our listeners think are very serious.

Haven't gotten very many responses to any of them just yet.

No, but the question for the last episode was what are the three expressions of the elca? And this will give you an idea of how seriously we take these are the three expressions of the ELCA Holy Baptism, Holy Communion and almsgiving. The local congregations, the synods and the churchwide organization. The Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Lord's Prayer. Or are they frowning, sneering and glaring? And of course, for all our church nerds out there, they are the local congregations, the synods and the churchwide organization. We're not going to do and we're not going to do a catechism question for this episode. And so make up your own. Send it to us and we'll tell you that you're right. But we really appreciated having you here. I look forward to having many, many conversations and getting to see you when you come to Detroit next. So so we'll wrap up here with Main Street Lutherans is hosted by Keith Fair and Ben Fote, and the show is produced by Phote Media Productions. Find all our contact information, links and a transcript in the episode notes. Until next time, Go in peace. Serve the Lord.

Thanks be to God.

Thanks be to God.