This is Ben and this is Keith, and this is Main Street Lutherans. And today we have an opportunity to have an interview with Bishop Scott Allen Johnson from the Nebraska Synod. And I chuckle when I say his name just a little bit and he may tell you why, but he's agreed to join us this episode and talk with us about lay ministry, especially in their context. But we thought it'd be an opportunity to review a little bit about rostered and non rostered leaders in the elca. And Ben, you yourself are a licensed lay minister, so you want to go first and talk about that a little bit or you want me to describe the roster leaders first?

Well, so we'll just define the roster first.

Right.

So a roster is a list of pastors and well, of rostered leaders. But who's eligible to be on that roster are ordained ministers of word and sacrament, which are, we would refer to as clergy or pastors, and ordained ministers of word and service, which we would consider to be deacons and deaconesses, which we've talked about deacons and deaconesses at length in a prior episode. We'll put a link to that in the notes.

Yeah, and it's worth mentioning, especially for our context, that, you know, different church traditions or denominations, whatever you want to call them, you know, use those words in different ways. Pastors and deacons, you know, they're, they're especially deacons. You know, that word means very different things in different traditions. That's not, you know, a criticism, it's, it's just reality. You know, in some, in some church backgrounds, the deacon is kind of the equivalent of a church council member in the ELCA or maybe a, you know, in some places they might be a, the equivalent of a, of a lay leader in their congregation in some, in some fashion.

And sometimes for us, the church I grew up in, a deacon might be the usher, right? Yeah, we refer to, you know, what in other churches would be.

Ushers, Right, Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, deacons, as we've talked before, you know, are people that have been through much of the same theological training, seminary training as pastors, but in addition to that also have a specific skill set, passion, you know, place in the world that, that they carry with them that theological perspective. And so you might have deacons who serve as musicians in various settings. You might have deacons that are in the medical field. They might be running a non profit, they might be a teacher in a parochial school or a private college. So deacons. There are as many different jobs that deacons might do as There are deacons, which is different from pastors, where you have pastors who serve in different kinds of settings. But by and large we know that pastors are people that lead congregations for the most part in the elca. But again, even the word pastor in different faith traditions has different meanings. In some traditions, pastors are people that are simply identified in their congregation, are ordained to preach in their congregation or perhaps go and start a new congregation. But it doesn't have any assumption about perhaps what theological training or education or vetting they may or may not have had. You know, I sit on our sentence candidacy committee and so I know that, you know, people that are pursuing the role of either deacon or pastor, you know, becoming a roster leader in the elca, there's a ton of training and education that goes into that and you know, frankly a lot of psychological evaluations and background checks and accountability and continuing ed that's expected and continued monitoring of what these people are going to, to be and do. And then we think that's important. And it's not a criticism against denominations that work differently, just that's how we operate. Yeah, so those are the rosters. Word of Sacrament and Word of Service.

Yeah. And then we've got the non rostered leaders which sort of going in some sort of order from the closest to rostered ordained ministers to away from that. So interns, right, are when, when someone's an intern, we may call them a vicar or, or something. They may be authorized by the synod that they're, they're interning in to, to preside over worship, give the, the sacrament of Holy Communion, but they are not yet ordained or on the roster. And so, so they would be considered non rostered leaders at that point.

Right.

And then people like, kind of like student teachers.

That's right.

You know.

Yeah, that's right.

And then get people like me, I'm a licensed lay minister in my synod that is a version of what I think churchwide, we've, we've agreed to use the word synodically authorized ministers or sam. And, and so we're gonna, we're gonna learn more about those because every synod has, every synod that has a program like this has it differently. And, and that then, then also we have congregational leadership. So, so when we talk about non rostered leaders, we're talking about even people who are like the secretary on our church council, people who, who run the Sunday school program, even our Sunday school teachers. We have to acknowledge that we believe in, in, you know, the, that everyone is a minister in some form that's a very different thing. And so when we talk about non rostered leaders, we should talk about everybody.

Right? Right.

It's the vocation of the baptized. That's right.

But then also we've got synod and churchwide leadership, both professional and volunteer, on our committees and our councils. And so when we talk about non rostered leaders, that's sort of the group that we're generally talking about, which is everybody, just to be fair. And so, so there's our, there's our dichotomy there, there's, that's where we're, where we split. There is a very thin line sometimes between rostered and non rostered leadership from a leadership perspective, but not from how the church refers to people. You're not borderline. You are ordained the moment you are ordained.

Right.

So that's it.

And up until then you are not.

Yeah, well. And since we're talking about getting on the roster, there's also a process for being removed from the roster. And so that can be a punishment for people who violate our rules and things, or people can choose to be removed from the roster. People can also be on the roster and not actively ministering because of certain reasons. But I believe that being rostered helps maintain like health insurance and things that our church provides.

Right.

In that and still preserving the possibility of coming back to a roster position. So like when I was on, when I was in between calls for a little while and operating my own businesses, I was still on the roster, but I was in a category called on leave from call, which I could maintain for a couple of years. But then if I wanted to stay on the roster beyond that, I basically had to seek permission to remain on leave from call. And I did that. And then shortly after that I ended up in another call anyway, so it was irrelevant for me personally, but yeah, yeah, so there are people that are on the roster even if they aren't currently serving in a rostered role. And maybe they're just preserving the ability to be a supply preacher, you know, filling in for pastors on vacation, for example, or doing a short term interim or something. Or maybe they're just thinking, you know, right now I'm working as this whatever, but there's a possibility that I may go back to professional ministry one day, which was the case for me. So yeah, yeah.

So while we've been talking about all this, our guest, Bishop Scott Johnson has been listening in and, and nodding his head with us. So we, we seem to have gotten everything, everything somewhat close to right anyway.

And so I Hope he would have said something otherwise.

So, Bishop, it's great to have you with us today.

Yeah, thanks. It's good to be here, guys.

Yeah, we appreciate you taking the time and I think, Ben, this may be a first for us. This might be the first person who got in touch with us and said, hey, I'd love to be on your show. Everybody else we've had to bribe or pay or something.

Yeah, the checks are coming, right? Yeah, as soon as.

That sounds good.

As soon as the check clears this.

We'Ll put them in the lay ministry fund. It'll be great.

That's right.

But thank you. I actually comes from actually a conversation with my spiritual director, who I, I mentioned that I'd been thinking about filling out the better, better Noah Synod that you had. And, and I said, but I don't want to be too self promotional. And, and a spiritual director is like why you're doing. If you believe you're doing good work, you should want to tell people about it. So, yeah, it's. And, and I like the show, so why not ask if it might be helpful to have me on the show?

Well, and that's encouragement for anybody else to, to fill out that form and promote your congregation or your synod and.

Let everybody know who better to promote your synod than the bishop himself or herself. So thank you for. Yeah, thank you for, for submitting that. In fact, that was included in our last episode, I think it, wasn't it, Ben?

Yes.

Yeah. And now we have the bishop himself. So thank you. Thank you for joining us. But we were really intrigued by. In the submission for that Better Know a Synod, you mentioned that one of the things you were proud of in your synod was the lay ministry program. And so we were really intrigued because it's a topic that we would like to be able to discuss, to have you come on and share with us some about that. So I'm looking forward to getting into this subject with you.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's. It's one of the things you. We literally would not be as strong of a synod as we are right now without our. The various facets of lay ministry that happen in the Nebraska Senate. The one that we're most well known for is it's called our Parish Ministry Associate Program. And this has been going for over 30 years in the Nebraska Senate. The earliest that I can find in the records that I've looked at, there was a PMA that we call them, because everything has to be acronym. In the ELCA, there was an early PMA that was certified in 1995. So these were folks originally. It was a program that was designed for churches that kind of hovered on that line between at the time a lot of, a lot of the stronger Nebraska Senate congregations were. They had a single pastor and maybe some other staff, maybe even some other full time staff. But as, as you both probably have heard, you know, bringing on another full time ordained ministry staff can be a really big leap because of the, the different ways of, of offering the benefits and packages for the professional ministry the ELCA has. And that was a piece of the equation that the Nebraska Synod was trying to solve by saying, we know there are people locally who have the gifts and skills to do ministry. They need a little bit of official training, they need some oversight from a mentor pastor. Some congregations do not need to add a full on associate pastor to get to where they're doing effective ministry. There can be somebody that's a better fit for that. And that was kind of the genesis for the parish ministry associate program. Over time that program has morphed into some different ways of doing it which does involve the SAMs. The Senate authorized ministers that you talked about earlier. Originally, PMAs were not intended to be sacramental ministers. They were mostly pastoral care, visitation, sometimes, you know, confirmation co teachers or even, even full on directors themselves. You know, the, just the different kinds of, of things that, you know, if you have a ministry team as opposed to a single ordained minister, you divvy up the portfolios depending on the gifts and skills of the people involved. Over time the program's morphed, but we still have plenty of PMAs that are faithfully serving in the Nebraska Senate who've never been sacramental authorized minister, never been senate authorized ministers. Don't intend to be, don't want to be, don't feel called to be. But we do have more and more congregations where the primary, the primary spiritual leadership comes from a parish ministry associate who is serving as a sinus, as a synod authorized minister in that congregation. And that's a reflection of a lot of different things. Rural America is changing. We are, we are a very agricultural state that has seen a lot of our, a lot of our communities change drastically because of the way that industrial agriculture has changed farming and, and farming jobs and communities and, and our churches are, are changing as a result of that as well. Nobody's, it's not necessarily anybody's done anything wrong, but a lot of our congregations would struggle to grow because the counties in which they live, they are not growing. And so a lot of our PMAs are doing good ministry with folks that are faithfully living where they've lived for many years. As the town around them has changed, they still have a place and a presence and a calling to do ministry that's just different than it was say in the 1930s, 50s, 60s or 70s. And our PMAs are a crucial part of that equation.

What's the normal format for that? Is a PMA a person operating as a pma? Are they paired with an ordained clergy person?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's some basic, there's a program of theological education that we have people go through. Usually it's about an 18 to 36 month process. So anywhere from a year and a half to sometimes three years. We've used a variety of vendors over the years for this and along with that educational piece, and it's usually one or two classes at a time. It's not certainly a full time course load. Like if a person can do that, we're usually recommending that they look into candidacy and actually possibly looking at ordained ministry. But then with that they're also paired with a mentor pastor who's got a relationship that is they're, they're meant to meet with them and work with them as far as. So the relationship is very similar to say maybe a vicar or an intern and their supervising pastor during that year. It's just that it's an ongoing relationship.

So is that, is that pastor typically in the same congregation as the pma?

It was originally. Right now it's usually not. We, we have a fairly hyp percentage of our congregations that are served by our, by our PMAs as the only on site, you know, spiritual leader that, you know, paid spiritual leader to say quite often it's another pastor that serves in the mission cluster that they're part of. Some synods have conferences they divide into. In the Nebraska Synod, we have mission clusters and some of our clusters only have one or two ordained ministers in the entire cluster right now. So they're quite often the mentor pastor for a number of PMAs in the, in the cluster. And I will say it's the nice thing about technology, you know, the same, the same stuff that allows us to do this recording across the country allows. I know some of our PMAs will have their, their mentor will be across the state from them, but they regularly meet by zoom and that's, it's the way that they've been able to make it work.

Yeah, it certainly makes a difference in a synod that's geographically on the larger side the way where yours Is, you know, where I'm at in Pennsylvania, our synods are small and we sometimes take that for granted that, you know, you can drive from one side to the other in two hours. That's not something you're going to do every day and back, but it is very different when you're talking about something the size of Nebraska.

Yeah, two hours gets me about a third of the way across the synod, so I'd have another four at least to go. Depending on where I'm going, it might be even longer than that, so.

Right.

Yeah. And it's important to note that it's not just our rural communities that are served by PMAs as well. You know that there are a couple of congregations in the Omaha and Lincoln area that have PMAs, and we actually have one. I was just on a zoom call with him earlier tonight. A chaplain at one of our local nursing homes is a PMA who's been certified by the Nebraska Synod and has been. Been serving in that place for a couple years now and is doing really wonderful work. He's happy. The. The nursing home is happy. And it's just been a good, a good way that we can connect in. In ways that we wouldn't be able to if it was, you know, kind of this understanding that only the, the rostered or ordained ministers can do ministry really does help us. As you said, Ben, it helps us kind of thin the line between the ministry of all believers and the ministry of the ordained ministers. When we're on our game as ordained ministers, we're supposed to be equipping the saints for ministry. And this, we think, helps us kind of acknowledge it almost becomes more of a spectrum than a dividing line.

Thanks. I just, I wonder, Bishop, if I know that none of us have a crystal ball or a direct line to the Holy Spirit to be able to answer this question for sure. But I wonder if you could speculate. Absolutely. I wonder if you could speculate a little bit and hopefully, you know, there are not congregations in your center that are going to hold you to this if you get it wrong or right. But I'm just curious if you could speculate a little bit about where might you see the ELCA going with this form of ministry, where what I'm hearing you describe is something that may be like a network of lay leaders, but with some amount of training and experience and even specialization, operating under the oversight of a smaller group of ordained clergy. Do you think that that is something that the ELCA could, you know, look at as a thriving future form should be looking at as a thriving future form?

Absolutely, yes. And I think it's actually something that's been at work in the ELCA for quite some time. I don't know this for sure, but I don't know of many other denominations that have a requirement of a certain number of clergy to laypersons for most of our official committees, boards, assemblies and that sort of thing. But I know the ELCA says specifically that when we gather as the churchwide assembly, for example, 60% of that assembly is to be comprised of laypersons. Only 40% is to be comprised as the clergy. I would imagine most other mainline denominations probably do have some number along, along the way there, but I think this is one of the pivots that is actually already happening in the elca, but needs to continue. And that is, there's been a number of different people that I've heard say it, so it certainly doesn't start with me. But it's the shift from a clergy led lay supported denomination to a lay led, clergy supported church that really focuses on activating the baptismal vocation of all disciples. And I think that's been one of the things that as much as I'm a lifelong Lutheran, born and raised in the Lutheran Church in America, certainly became ELCA when the merger happened. I'm a, I think the merger was the right thing at the right time. But I think one of the consequences of the way we patterned ourselves in those days was that we really looked at, at, at the, at the clergy as kind of the professional ranks of those who do ministry. And I think it's something we've had to, we've had to course correct on over the years is to say that it was, it was always supposed to be all of us doing ministry together. We just lost sight of that for a while. And I think it's something I see afoot in the entire ELCA already, it's something we're really focusing on here in the Nebraska Senate is to say that, you know, if this church is to have a future, and we think it should, and we think God has a future for, is moving more in the direction of a more activated, a more activated membership, a greater number of people who, who, who seek to live their faith out 24, 7, 365 and not just for that hour on Sunday morning while the pastor talks at them from the pulpit. So yeah, I think, I think that's the, that's the shift. And, and I'll, you know, I should also note for some there's a lot of different reasons why a person would become a lay minister of whatever kind, you know, licensed lay minister like you are, Ben, or, or PMA as we have here in Nebraska. For some folks that becomes a gateway into, into serving the greater church as well. A couple of the ordinations that I've done so far as bishop have been PMAs who started as PMAs because their just their life and circumstances did not allow them to, to be off at seminary. But over time that calling just kept growing and transforming them and transforming itself. And eventually they entered the candidacy process and became pastors and have continued to serve faithfully as ordained ministers of word and sacrament in the Nebraska Senate. It's been a real source of joy for us.

Thanks. You know, I wonder too, then we were talking before we started recording in, in one particular context around what it means to be Lutheran. And so, you know, in thinking about that question with what you've just been saying, it seems, you know, I'll just speak from my own perspective as the pastor in the very geographically small synod that we've already talked about and just say, you know, in my context, it's has been my experience that for the most part people look to the pastor to answer that question. For them to, to tell them what does it mean to be Lutheran, to, to guide them and teach them in what does it mean to be Luther? I'm not saying that's the right way to do it. I'm only saying that it seems in my, in my context, in my perspective that that's what people are expecting. I hear you describing potentially a really different way of being church, which, you know, I, I've. I find fascinating, exciting. I'm not sure how to, how to get from A to B. Oh man.

I was hoping you'd get that.

Well, you take I90C.

Yeah, that and I'm sorry, Ben or Keith. Excuse me, I, I cut you off there, but was the.

No, that's right. I think, yeah. I get on I 70. Once I get past Dayton it gets really easy because roads are nice and straight and flat. But beyond that I'm not sure how to, how to, how to get from, you know, this. What is. You know, I think, I don't know how else to describe it except a very clergy centric denomination.

Well, I'll give you an example.

So very lay centric denomination.

I, I was on a.

Please fix us.

I was on a call committee and they insisted on making our site profile say that we are a clergy led congregation and that we'll support anything the pastor wants to do and we'll get out of your way. And a lot of our congregations are in that spot. And we see a lot of evangelical churches, megachurches or mega wannabe churches. That's how they run, right? Your band goes on stage, you hear a sermon or a skit, and you receive the entertainment value and you receive some sort of message and you get out of there and the paid staff cleans up and does all the stuff, and you don't have to worry about it until you come back for either, you know, a lunch program or kids, you know, recreation time or something like that. That is what a lot of our congregations have come to. Our congregants have come to want or to expect. And they think that's what the clergy want to. And so I had to explain. No, in fact, that's not what the clergy I know want. They would rather be part of a team of congregation members who want to be active in the community and, and bring God or show God's presence to the people around them. That is why people are called to seminary, not to be the foot soldiers for a group of people that will pay for them to do something, you know, a special project. And that's probably a change of how our seminaries attracted people between, say, the 80s and today. Now, now we're pulling people to seminaries who want to be doing the work or want to be involved in the work as opposed to getting the paycheck. And we're doing that because our seminaries are now funding the seminary education in a lot of ways. And so the cost is much lower. And so we don't have the professional. You know, we're not trying to bring in a professional that's going to make a terrible amount of money because they've got a whole bunch of student loans to pay off.

Right.

And, and unfortunately, we're in that transition where Keith, you know, our friends who, who went through seminary and graduated around 2,000 still, you know, had that large debt and, and are followed by these people that don't.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, I'm, I'm still paying off that large debt. And, and, and it's. I think it's. It's part of a bigger hole as well, in, in the sense of, of how the church itself is changing too. You know, the, the Gen Xers and younger. I'm an Xer myself. We're not, we're not joiners and we're not institutionalists.

Right.

And so if we're going to be part of something, it's Got to have value in and of itself for either myself or the community that I live in. And so you're seeing this in all kinds of voluntary organizations right now. The Elks, the Lions Club, the Kiwanis, they're all struggling to keep members, and they've done great work over time. They've been very big and important parts of their communities. But all of our community organizations, and I think in some ways the church, it has some of this in its own DNA as well. We assumed that everybody understood why the institution was important and why it should continue, because it's important and it should continue. And nobody really ever saw the circular logic in that and that piece of it that. I think where we are making strides as the ELCA is where we have remembered that, you know, the original point was not to keep the building on the corner and the, you know, keep the, Keep the lights on and have the bell ring at 9:30 every, every Sunday morning, but how everything that happened in that building and everything that was part of that religious community affected the lives of the people that were part of it as they left and went into their, into their week. So, you know what I hear on Sunday morning from the pastor and I, I should be clear, I absolutely still see a need for clergy, for deacons and pastors in the future of the elca. We need to move far more to equippers and permission givers than gatekeepers. And I think that's maybe where the big difference lies. And also encouraging people. I heard your story about the call papers, and there's a part of me that was kind of like, huh, okay. And then there's a little switch in my head that says, but that also means that the pastor has to be the only idea person in the entire community. And not all pastors are idea people, and not all deacons are idea people. So how do you, how do you set up a religious community where the gifts of each individual are. Are lifted up a little bit better? Some pastors, I mean, some of some of our strongest congregations are led by pastors who are idea people who, you know, you've all seen these folks. You know, they get an idea, they grab it, they flesh it out, they bring it to their council, the council signs on, and then everybody in the church gets behind it. And sometimes those churches grow and do really great ministry. Some of those pastors really struggled, though, in handing off that visionary aspect. And when they're no longer the pastor of that church, there's a vacuum that somebody's got to fill, right? Others Others are better at bringing people along and inviting others into owning the mission and the vision with them. And in those congregations, there's a legacy that kind of outlives the pastor and the congregation, then becomes the caretaker of the mission and the vision. And that's the kind of thing I think we're looking for. And especially with our lay ministry folks, our PMAs, they're working in congregations that are averaging 15, 20, 30, 40 people on a Sunday. These are not churches that are going to add a wing to the building anytime soon. The visionary leader is not a good fit there, but the leader who can enter into their lives with them as they are, can be at the football game on Friday night, can be. Can. Can be with them while they're watching the 4th of July parade, can. Can do the prayers at the Memorial Day service, at the fe. At the. At the cemetery. You know, that kind of person can be a leader that can help a congregation, you know, continue the ministry that it's been doing in, in some cases here in Nebraska for over 150 years, and can actually help them be faithful in a time when there's a lot of anxiety and uncertainty about the future. And some of the best, unfortunately, are the folks that sometimes have to ask the hard question that says, is it possible that the mission of this community has come to its end, that this town of 200, which is slowly growing smaller and smaller, is it maybe time to say that for the sake of the church and the sake of the gospel, we're going to cease to function as an individual faith community, but we're going to do so in a way that's holy and purposeful and entrust the assets that we have to various community organizations or other parts of either where we live locally or of the greater church, to say, we've had our time and we're going to pass the baton on to you.

So is there criticism of lay ministry programs? Yours has been there for over 30 years, so maybe it's gone. If there was some. But I would imagine that some pastors, some clergy, see the bishop's office as sort of their representation.

Right.

Help with benefits, help with those sorts of things. And sort of. When I was in college, I sort of saw the bishop's office as sort of the union for the pastors.

Right.

And so is there something of acting against the interests of your roster in promoting people doing that work who are not ordained? Is that in some way, to use Detroit lingo, is that a scab?

That's a boy. Talk about regretting volunteering to show up for a podcast? That's a great question. I would put it in terms that a lot of ministers have heard over the years that sometimes the task of the preacher is to comfort the afflicted, and sometimes the task is to afflict the comfortable. We are called to be honest, and let's put it that way. Yes, there is certainly that, that, that part of the, of the work that we do as Senate staff that's, you know, we serve the whole church. So we're not, you know, as a bishop, I'm not just a pastor to the pastors. I'm a pastor to the entire Nebraska Synod. I'm a pastor who serves 80,000 fellow disciples across the state of Nebraska, some of whom happen to be deacons and pastors. I think it's the responsibility for us, as best as we're able, to accompany communities in discerning their future. And also sometimes that does mean in discerning what would be a fair compensation package for a rostered minister. Is it feasible for this congregation to promise that they can afford, you know, some congregations can afford a minister with 25 years of experience, but many can't if they're going to be, if they're going to be paying it at guidelines level. And we always want to really advocate for that. So it's our responsibility to say, you know, this is how we want to walk with you in this, to help you discern the faithful way forward. And it's also a question of availability there. There are a lot of congregations in the Nebraska Synod that are, that are not had a pastor in a while, and there's a lot of congregations that haven't raised up a pastor in a while. I don't know the exact numbers of that, but that's a question we always have to ask, too, is, you know, you're looking to the Synod for an ordained minister to serve your congregation, but there hasn't been a son or daughter of this congregation in over 40 years. Do you think that we order them from Amazon? I mean, it's a commodity that former leaders, and that includes lay and clergy, need to be having that conversation as well. It's one of the things that's part of our job description in any of the constitutions of the elca, is that clergy are supposed to be on the lookout for those people that have the gifts and skills to take up the, the ministry of word and service or the ministry of word and sacrament. Congregations are supposed to be part of that conversation, too. So. So it's a. Yeah, it's a, It's a bigger question. It's, it's, it's holding the space in discernment for some of those uncomfortable conversations that, you know, after, after three years, I, I'm. I'm getting a little more able to be comfortable in uncomfortable situations. But it's a learned task for me as a bishop. Sure.

I think that was well handled. So a similar sort of thing. We've come to realize that there are, or at least there have been synods where a SAM Senate authorized minister is able to preside over service and perform the sacrament of Communion, but that there are word and service ministers, they're deacons who are not in that same synod. I'm guessing that Nebraska has deacons who preside.

They do. As a matter of fact. I'm married to one. My, My wife Kristen is a, is a deacon and she's currently serving a halftime call to a geographic parish about 20 miles north of where we live. That's been. Part of their discernment is they have requested that she be able. She be authorized for the sacrament. And the funny story is for, for us as a couple is, is she's always been adamant that she is not a pastor. She's a deacon. And I, and I, I don't question that her father was an ELCA pastor, so she knows the difference. But in the, and this I think is one of the things that, that, that I think this, the, the SAM program allows us to do is it is, it is different because it's a, it's a limited authorization for a certain time in a certain place. It is not meant to be permanent authorization. I wouldn't argue for it to be because, and I've been thinking about this a lot because of another conversation that I'm having, but one of the peculiarities of, of being on the roster of, of the ministry of Word and Sacrament is you are available to the entire church as that minister of Word and Sacrament. That, that's, that's portable. It goes with you. So if there are reasons that a person does not feel has not discerned a call to the ministry of Word and Sacrament for the entire church, they probably shouldn't be authorized to do that for the entire church. But if there's a local need for a certain time and place and the church can be flexible enough to meet that need by periodically authorizing someone in a slightly different circumstance stance because of the way we approach the sacraments, you know, we're, we're allowed to do that in the elca and it's it's, it's a very synod to synod and, and I, you know, we have a certain way of doing it in the Nebraska Synod that wouldn't necessarily work in other places, nor, nor would I want to tell one of my colleague bishops how they need to do it in their synod. But it's a, it's, it's a peculiar thing that I, I confess I hadn't really thought a whole lot about until I was, until I was elected was how all of this works and what are the ramifications for some of these larger systemic issues that go with what seems like such a simple thing as, as, you know, being authorized to offer Holy Communion and Holy Baptism in a congregation. It's it. And again, and I, and I always want to stress this, we've, we've got plenty of our PMAs who've never felt, never discerned a call to sacramental ministry. And we, and we shouldn't cap. We, and I'm not saying that this is what's been part in this conversation, but we shouldn't think that lay ministry is just lay people doing what pastors and deacons do for less money or even voluntarily. That's not lay ministry. Lay ministry is a scope of different things which sometimes might include being authorized for sacramental ministry. But the vast majority of people who think of themselves as lay ministers, that never once enters their mind. And, and that's, that's not part of their call.

Sure.

If I could just ask another detail question on, on this subject, you spoke about ramifications and wider systemic questions. I wonder, and, and not presuming that you would be an expert to answer this, but I wonder what ramifications there might be for this just conversationally, this approach to sacraments and lay people presiding, etc. Would have on our ecumenical relationships and full communion partners such as with the Methodist Church, the Episcopal church, Reformed Church, etc. I'm not necessarily thinking that maybe you have something to say to that or not, but, but it just, it raises the question in my mind.

Yeah, it certainly matters, and it's one of the reasons we've, we've moved slowly on these things is we've done a lot of really good work. To be, to be perfectly frank, we've become known as the ecumenical denomination in the U.S. you know, we've, we've got these, this incredible network of full communion agreements that, that we're also still learning how to live into. You know, and the peculiarities of being in those relationships mean that, that we, we really do have to Pay attention to what it is that we're doing and how we're doing it and why we're doing it, because these things matter. They matter to us, and they matter to our full communion partners. I am not, I'm not on any of the ecumenical teams within the Conference of the of Bishops. I'm not sure that I should be because I tend to be a lot more of a. Kind of a practical person and say I wouldn't want to lose my patience with a potential ecumenical partner just because I want to get things done. But, but it does. It does. It does matter. And we, we want to be sure that we're not. It's. It's one of the reasons why we have, we have guidelines that the Conference of Bishops has agreed to on, on Senate authorized ministers is we're not, we're not of one mind on how this all works either. And, and it's not just. It's not solely up to the Conference of Bishops, but, but as the ones who are responsible for the oversight of the ministry within our respective synods, we do need to be setting this up in a way that works as we understand and see ourselves as those full communion partners. I've got a meeting next month with my Episcopal colleague of the Diocese of Nebraska, and I want to make sure.

That.

The way that we do this doesn't put any of his congregations in an untenable situation where they're being asked to do or sign on to something that's not permissible under the way that they understand the ordering of the Church and the ordering of sacraments. So, you know, for us, you know, the question is always what proclaims Christ? And if, you know, sometimes we have to be willing to say for the sake of my, of my sibling in Christ who's not in the same spot that I am, as, as it, as it pertains to, to this particular issue. I'm going to refrain from doing everything that I think we should be able to do because I want to. I want to be in partnership with this, this sibling in Christ and have them come alongside with me as we go. Kind of reminds of the, of the, of the proverb, you know, if you want to go fast, go on your own. If you want to go far, go together. Well, we want to go far. And that means, you know, that means sometimes that the speed of church is what it is because we grind really fine on some of this stuff, but it's worth the work to make sure as many of us as possible are in the same place as we move forward in faith.

Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you for that.

Yeah.

Now, when you wrote to us about, about this program, the PMA program, you mentioned that this is collaborative with the Central State Synod. How did that come about?

You know, I'm still learning that story. I was born and raised in Nebraska. I left to go to attend Luther Seminary in 1999 and I didn't come back to Nebraska until 20 years later. So a lot of the stuff that happened I missed as, as these things were being formed because I was off in seminary and then I was serving calls in Minnesota and Iowa. But, but I know that the Nebraska Senate and the Central State Senate in particular saw a need for, for some kind of certification of laypersons who could be, who could be brought in to pulpit, supply occasional sacramental service, pastoral care, you know, something more, something more than, than what was available to them at the time that the church hadn't really created yet. So I know that, that the Nebraska Synod and the Central State Senate started on this with the Parish Ministry Associate program. They developed it together. I know their, their, their first few years, I think they were even educating those, those people together. And, and even today here in both of our synods, our in house version of that is still known as Parish Ministry Associates. So it is really a joint venture that, like I said, if I ever do have a sabbatical, one of the things I'd actually like to do is dig into that history and maybe write it because there's got to be stories there. I just don't know what they are yet. But, but I know, I know that was something. And if, you know, the Nebraska Senate is what it is here in the Nebraska Synod, two thirds of our population lives within, say, 75 miles of the Missouri river on our eastern border in, in the Central State Synod, that's Kansas and Missouri. You've got a lot of Kansas outside of the Kansas City metro and a lot of Missouri outside of St. Louis. And we've both got very rural areas that needed different kinds of ministry and had different needs for ministry than what the church was able to provide at the time. And so it was a definite need that my predecessor and Bishop Donna Simon's predecessors saw and really worked toward to say, you know, we need to get on this, we need to create this, because we have a need in our congregations that's not currently being met by the wider church. And this is our opportunity to step forward and lead on this.

And just to those two synods together. Just looking on the map, the southeast corner of Missouri isn't terribly far from Memphis.

Right.

And the northwest corner of Nebraska, well, is, well, Pine Ridge Reservation.

Right.

Yeah.

That is quite a stretch.

Right.

And the diversity of area there, you've got the rivers and that and the hills that come with it and then just large flat plains out there. And so, yeah, there's quite a variety of ministry contexts there, I'm sure.

Yeah. And when, when those, when our, when our ministries were settled in, most of the congregate, most of the communities that, that we call home around here, you know, quite a lot of them were immigrant farmers who were homesteading, and they regularly did not have pastors when their congregations were founded. I, I've read history after history after history of congregations in the Nebraska Synod that were founded because people gathered in one community and said, okay, we're here. We need a church. We're going to plant a church. We're going to get a book of sermons. And, and, and if we don't have somebody who can preach, we'll read from the book of sermons. And, and, and, you know, they, they, they just. It's kind of. I, I hate to sound a little cliche, but it is kind of that frontier spirit that's still here that says, you know, if it needs to get done, we're just going to get it done. And if it doesn't work the same way everywhere else, that's fine. They can do what they need to do, but we're going to do what works for us. And it's part of, I think it's part of what makes at least the Nebraska that I know and the parts of Kansas and Missouri that I know. It's part of what makes us a little different and special and probably the reason that, that the University of Nebraska, one of our fight songs, is literally titled There is no Place Like Nebraska.

Awesome.

All right, well, I think that covers it. I think we, I don't know that we can get you into more trouble than we've already done here. And I don't think we've tried. That's right. We tried.

Could I do one more brief plug and I. Probably.

Absolutely.

As we're talking about lay. As we're talking about lay ministry, I do want to acknowledge it. It's a piece I just realized that I hadn't brought up. We have a. Something we call the Emmaus Lifelong Learning Institute, and it was originally created to be continuing education opportunities for our rostered ministers. And over time, it has morphed more into. We're offering all kinds of online experiences for curious Disciples of all ages, shapes and sizes. Basically, we do book studies, worship studies, Bible studies. Different. It's just one way that we can provide people opportunities to grow in faith in whatever area they need to grow in. And if somebody's got something they want to request, we try to meet the request. So if you go to the Nebraska Synod website, you can find Emmaus. It's the. It's the road to Emmaus is what it's named after. And we have a lot of offerings there. They're available by Zoom for anybody across the entire country. So I'm doing. I'm actually doing a series right now on. On the ELCA social statements. And so in October, I'll be doing the one on economics. So if you're interested in anything like that, come on over and check us out. We'd love to. We'd love to partner with you, because we also know this is a. This is a big church, but it's a good church, and there's a lot of folks that. That, you know, have a lot to offer the church, and we'd like to help them figure out how that works.

All right.

There's a slogan.

Yeah. One church better together. Absolutely. Yes.

Awesome.

Right?

Awesome.

Well, thank you very much. This was. This was splendid.

Yeah. Well, it's been really good to get to know you a little bit better. Like I said when I submitted the form, I'm a listener and I've enjoyed the podcast. I'll not sure if I'll listen to the one that I'm on. That's always a little bit weird, but agreed, I will keep listening, and I'll encourage my colleagues to know that it's largely painless and they should come and hang out with you guys. All right, thanks.

Thanks. And, Bishop, just so you know, I never listen to the episodes that I'm part of either, so.

I, on the other hand, listen about six times. So.

Yeah.

Right. I have to.

Yeah.

The Joy does all the editing. That's right. Yes. Yeah. Well, thanks, Bishop Scott Johnson. Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you for joining us. Blessings to you and into your work in the Nebraska Synod, and thank you for taking time to be with us.

Thanks and the same back to you. This is good and faithful work also, so thanks for what you do for the church, too.

Once again, we'd like to share our thanks with Bishop Scott Johnson from the Nebraska Synod. We've learned so much about lay ministry and have a lot of things to think about. This has been great information and an important part of ministries in our Synods moving on to our C segment better know a congregation in this case. Our congregation is Prince of Peace Lutheran Church in Addison, Illinois. It is a member of the Metro Chicago Synod. The pastor is Antonio Cabello. We'll have links to the website, the Instagram page, the Facebook page in the episode notes, as always, along with their YouTube channel where you can watch some of their recent services. In the form that was filled out here, how many members? It says growing. I looked it up. Officially there are 196 baptized members. 120 confirmed. The average attendance on site is 129. For having 196 baptized, that's a huge number. Also 140 average attendance online. And so that is. That is a pretty sizable congregation when you total it all up. Programs that they're proud of. Our person that submitted the form said prayer training and Bible studies. I'll also add that on their. On their website they have advertisements for a book study that they do monthly, a new book each month. And they have a group called the Gourmands that go out for dinner once a month. And so you can look at their website to see what kind of interesting dinners they're having, their worship times and styles. They have two traditional services, a Sunday at 8 o' clock and 11 o'. Clock. And in between those they have a Spanish. A Spanish service at 10 o' clock on the fourth Sunday. And it looks like it's blended. So maybe it's that the Spanish service happens between the 8 and 11 instead of. Maybe it takes place. Well, we'll learn more about that when we go visit. Right, everybody?

All right.

A favorite song or hymn is I was there to hear your morning cry. Of course, a favorite for all of us. If your congregation had a mascot, what would it be? We didn't get an answer for that one. But they're right across from the Addison, Addison Trail High School, which is the Blazers. And so they could adopt that if they'd like. There are plenty right across the street. It is an interesting congregation. They appear to have some. Some relationships with other congregations, particularly in Algonquin, Illinois. And so I found that to be quite interesting. So there we go. And Carol. And Carol. I'm gonna, I'm gonna probably mess up your last name. Blomke is who turned in our, our forum for us today.

Thank you so much for sharing your.

Congregation in the western suburbs of Chicago. Only about look like maybe 15 minutes from the Lutheran center where the ELCA is headquartered. All right, thanks for sharing that and go ahead and share any of those with that. We've got links in our episode notes and on our website. Go ahead and take a look there. We've got some great episodes coming, coming for you. We're going to get back with Dr.

Martin Granquist on finishing up our history.

Segment, and we're gonna. We're gonna talk about elca, colleges and.

Universities and all sorts of fun stuff. So look for another episode here in a couple weeks.

All right?

Main Street Lutherans is hosted by Keith.

Fair and Ben Fot, and the show.

Is produced by Folt Media Productions. Find all our contact information, links and a transcript in the episode notes. Until next time, go in peace, serve the Lord. Thanks be to God.