This is Keith, and this is Ben, and this is Main Street Lutherans. Today, our topic is a different podcast. We're going to talk about the podcast, A Mighty Fortress is Our Pod that is hosted by Matthew Longfellow, a student at Capitol and Trinity Seminary. But Matthew talks with people who are Lutherans, who are ELCA Lutherans primarily, and talks about them, about their experience with church. Some of his episodes deal with callings or. Or the things that he does. And so that's kind of brought up the topic of, you know, if. Was there. Is there anybody that you just want to sit down and talk with? You know, this is the old political question. Who would you sit down and have a beer with? Right. Anybody. Is anybody in? In. Well, we'll leave it. Well, we'll leave it to church history. Anyway. Who would you want to sit down and have a beer with or just have a chat with?

Right. Yeah, I think, yeah, the two that pop into my head almost simultaneously are Meister Eckert or Julian of Norwich. Now, Julian of Norwich would probably not have a beer with me. Meister Eckert probably would. They were both figures in the Middle Ages, one in England, one in Germany, and both of them were mystics. I think I have a thing for mystics and mystical experiences. So, yeah, either one of them would be both known for writing some pretty interesting things. So, yeah, I think I would go with one of them. What about you?

So this is, you know, it's like the old Craigslist missed connections thing. I sat in a class with Vitor Vestela. I don't know that I've mentioned him on the podcast before, but he passed away, I think, 2018. And I. I would have taken a class with him. Just one. One class. One. One session of his class. When I was visiting LSTC in Chicago in 1995, maybe it was when. I think it was when you and I went to Chicago. But. But so he. The class that he took or that he gave would be. Would be the summary of his book, his first book, which would have been several years later. And I think. I think we had a. We didn't quite meet at the right. At the right spot. I don't think I was ready for that. But it affected me deeply. And reading the book, I'm like, oh, wait, I've seen all this before. But our conversation didn't really head the right direction. And I'd love to have that conversation over again, that opportunity, because everybody I've known, I know that has taken. That took classes with him, speak incredibly Highly of him. He's a. He was a theologian out of Brazil, had post colonial theology, had a lot of good, good stuff and worked out of Chicago. So it was kind of. Kind of cool and a great opportunity to. To meet him and all that. And I think I wasted that opportunity back then, but I had no way of knowing, honestly, so.

Right.

Yeah.

Sort of one of those. Not exactly a regret, but sort of an alternative history that you wish you had a chance to explore.

Yeah. That same trip, I was supposed to. Well, Martin Marty had invited me to stop by his office if ever I was in Chicago, and I thought he would be too busy to see me. And I found out later he probably wouldn't have been, that his door was open to people if he honestly invited you to visit him. He did not. He did not turn down those opportunities, I guess, and I was too late to take him up on that one, too, so.

Yeah.

Yeah. So with that, let's go to our conversation with Matthew Longfellow. Well, we have a guest this week, and it is Matthew Longfellow, who's a student at Trinity Seminary, but he has a podcast called A Mighty Fortress is our Pod. We'll have links to it in the show notes. You can find it on apple pie podcasts and all the different things. I find it on whatever my podcast thing is, I can't even remember right now. Anyway, it's good to have you, Matthew.

Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Yeah. Thanks for being with us. I have to say that I am jealous of your show in just about every way. I'm sure it's much better than ours, and I appreciate especially the title. I think that was pretty clever. Money Fortress is our podcast, and I'm absolutely, of course, jealous of your guest list. How many episodes have you released?

We're done 12 at this point.

Okay.

And each one of them is a separate interview. Right. You don't have that. Is your format okay?

Yeah.

That's really fantastic.

Trailed off a little bit, obviously, during the semester record a lot of them over the summer, hoping to get back on it here a little bit over the winter months. But yeah, it's been a really neat, neat experience.

And your aim is to release about weekly?

Weekly? When I'm doing it regularly.

It's hard.

Yeah, absolutely. For a couple months there, like June, July, doing it weekly. And then like I said, being back in school this fall, haven't done it as much. Obviously, we're happy to get the presiding bishop in a couple weeks ago.

So, yeah, Bishop Curry, and before that.

Bishop Eaton yes, yes, absolutely. They were both very, very generous with their time. And I guess I appreciate too, them sort of being willing to take a risk on a relatively unknown podcast and seeing the potential in that for them to be able to kind of tell their stories to people in the denomination. So, yeah, that was. That was really special.

Yeah. Tell us about yourself. You're in Columbus now.

Yep. Yeah. So I went to Capital for undergraduate, and if you listen to the podcast, several of the episodes are with people that have had various experiences at Capital, whether it be teaching or attending there. And that's been neat for me to, I guess, sometimes have notes from the previous episodes about Capital to bring to the following episodes. Well, Capital and Trinity, Learning a lot about Trinity was ELTS Evangelical Lutheran Theological Seminary until it merged with Hama Seminary at Wittenberg. So it's heard a lot of the stories there and how it merge. So it's helpful to have that. That context when talking about people that went there prior to or around the time of that merger. But yeah, went to Capital, currently at Trinity on the M. Div. Path, trying to move towards ordination in the elca. And yeah, just doing the podcast as a way to. I think it started with. For me, I really enjoy podcasts. I enjoy history and wanting to document and record the stories of some people that were directly involved in my life and my mentorship and the ministry. When I was an undergraduate, Capital, I worked on a couple of documentaries about the university's history, and that gave me a little bit of that passion for recording some of those stories. And yeah, I just, I knew a few people that I wanted to hear what they had to say about their experience in ministry in the church and just kind of went from there. My attitude has definitely been one of first and foremost, the goal is, I guess, learning for me that, you know, even if nobody listened to the podcast, I was getting the opportunity to just sit down with some ministers and lay people that had a lot of experience and a lot of insight to give me. So it's just been an extra blessing that some people have decided to listen to it.

I really appreciate how the. The focus at least. At least early, I think. I think as you get into some of the bishops and things, it strays a little bit away from. From that early focus of how people followed calls, even if it was, you've got some. Some spouses of pastors there. That and talking about how they received, for the most part, I think, husbands calls and how they dealt with that and the inclusion and changing places and that sort of Thing, sort of the family aspects.

Yeah, absolutely. That. That's been really interesting. Well, and I've had at least two interviews where it was a situation of a married pastor couple. So that. That's been interesting to hear about. Both, actually. No, at least three, because Bishop. Bishop Eaton, married to an Episcopal minister. So, yeah, that. That's been really interesting to hear about some of those dynamics in terms of meeting another spouse at seminary is an interesting thing. But then also, like, how do you manage kind of where you're both being called and who takes the lead, and when one person feels it's ready to go, what do you do about that? So that's been really interesting. The other question I think I've appreciated hearing all the different answers on is, I guess, just like, what it means to be Lutheran. I think that's a question that doesn't always get asked, especially in an age where, you know, people ask, you know, why should I belong to a particular denomination? I think it's. It's an important question to ask. So we know kind of what makes us distinct. And if anything, I've appreciated that. In their own way, most of the guests have had a lot of the same points, which tells me that, you know, for as big of a tent, as a denomination as we are, and as many different contexts as we have there, there really is something that does bind us all together.

Matthew, I'm curious. Did you. When you started college, were you considering already going to seminary?

A little bit. I'm not sure. I was not dead set on going to seminary at that point. I was, first of all, I think, more familiar than average with the pastoral profession. I'm not neither of my parents, but I'm not the first in my family to go into ministry in the elca, so I was more familiar than average with what that career could look like. Yeah, I think the call was gradual. A lot of it through different experiences and involvement. I would say it also was not linear either, that, you know, probably, say, beginning of my sophomore year of college, I was leaning more towards the ministry. And then there was maybe a point later, junior, senior year, where not. Not quite as much. And I ended up taking a year between undergraduate and seminary, which was really helpful for me, I think.

Did you do anything fun in that time?

No, I was. I was just working. Working at a Lutheran church, of all places. But, yeah, I think actually one of the. There were a number of things that were kind of holding me back. But one thing that was holding me back for sure was, I guess, just not wanting to Be a full time student anymore.

Oh, for sure.

And you know, one, one thing that has changed a lot since some of my relatives went through seminary and some of the people that I've interviewed went through seminary is they're a lot more open to part time situations, which is what I've done that I've been able to keep the job that I got during that year between while doing coursework and that'll change when I go on internship next year. But I've really appreciated that accommodation. I think really what that shows is that God is willing to work with you through kind of your needs.

You know, it's funny because I think that's, I think it's true of God has been all the time, but sometimes the church doesn't, doesn't mimic that same thing. Keith's on a candidacy committee for his synod, so he knows.

Right.

I've gotten a lot better with that.

I realize some of that is essentially necessity. Right. That we have a pastor shortage right now, which is something that I think has both been a source of call and reservation for me at different times.

Sure.

Both, you know, kind of if not me, then who. But also a, you know, am I going into a viable church over the, over the long term? Those are both things that I've, I've had to wrestle with. But you know, obviously that I'm sure has had an impact on the willingness to create alternative paths to ministry, whether it be what you're doing, Ben, with.

Just tiptoeing in being a lay minister.

Or what I'm doing part time. But I actually don't think that's inherently bad. I think a lot of organizations and just people make, a lot of times only make changes when they have to. And I think that's a natural thing and it's an exciting thing. I think we're willing to perhaps take risks in this time in a healthy way, in a way that we haven't in terms of evaluating what parts of the way that we call ministers are good and important and what parts are really just a roadblock to potentially getting more great people into these positions.

Yeah. And I think at least when Keith was in seminary, he graduated in 2000. Right. Keith 2000. So all my friends who were in seminary got saddled with a load of debt. And part of the reason that call committees or that candidacy committees had problems with, with candidates was that they were taking on too much debt. And it's. Well, if we charge less for seminary, that sure would help that. And so I think they've helped with that quite a bit lately.

Absolutely, yeah. So actually I'll just throw a plug out for fraternity here. And this is not any kind of a paid endorsement. Yeah, it's an ad read.

We'll work on that with a phone call.

Exactly, yeah. Brought to you by Trinity Lutheran Seminary. No, but we are currently in a situation at Trinity where all tuition is fully covered by scholarships, room and board, that kind of stuff. You're still on your own, but that's a huge change and help. So to anybody that is thinking about ministry that might be listening to this, if that is the reason that you're having hesitation, at least for the time being, we're very blessed at Trinity to be in that situation.

Is that true for both full time and part time students?

Yeah, full time and part time. And my understanding is both M Div. And non M Div. One thing that's been really interesting at Trinity during my time here that I think has been a huge blessing is we have really opened the doors a lot to our MTS program.

Master's of Theological Studies.

Yeah, Master of Theological Studies. Which, which is the two year degree if you're elca, that's normally what you would get if you're becoming a deacon. But if, if you're not going into ordained administrator in the elca, it's a helpful degree too. And we have a significant number of students, in fact more than we have ELCA MDIV students right now that are actually non ELCA Master of Theological Studies students. And I think that's been great both from the standpoint of bringing life just back into the seminary, you know, having, you know, sometimes 20, 30 people and some of the, you know, larger introductory courses, which I appreciate, but also bringing a number of perspectives to Trinity as well. So that's been kind of neat to see that little bit of a revival take place in my time there.

I'm curious, Matthew, if I could ask you this question and not to put you on the spot, but I think that most of the ELCA seminaries right now are offering either severely discounted or free tuition or scholarship covered or grant covered tuition to most of their students right now. And with an eye towards, and we were talking about this already before, trying to address that quarterly shortage and that debt load for students, trying to remove barriers, which is a wonderful thing. I have heard sort of anecdotal stories from other pastors, other Lutheran lay people who know something about what's going on in the wider church in different contexts and would say that the seminaries, and I'm not Picking on Trinity. I'm Trinity grad. You know, that. That whether it's Trinity or other seminaries and even colleges, in opening up to other traditions, other Christian traditions have lost a sense of their Lutheran identity. And I'm just curious about your perspective on that question or comment, whichever you want to call it as a person in that context right now.

I think that's a great point and an interesting thing to wrestle with.

You can plead the fifth.

I'll say something. Give me a second.

At least wait until you graduate before you answer.

Maybe. I think one thing is being in a context with non Lutherans. I think can be a method of forming Lutheran identity because you have to compare and contrast a little bit. At least it has for me. I think the other thing is a lot of the dynamics within denominations and between denominations have changed a lot over time where, you know, I say, I think as a Lutheran, there are times that, you know, on some theological topics, sometimes I feel like I'm, you know, relating to some of my non Lutheran colleagues as much or if not more than some of my Lutheran colleagues too. Not. And not in a way that is, you know, going against anything Lutheran for both. Keith, you're on a candidacy committee and my candidacy committee, but I guess just on a. Even just the types of ministry you want to do. So I see myself being, you know, I guess more of kind of a traditional, you know, parish pastor and, you know, a lot of recent Trinity grads and they're doing great work, sometimes see themselves in more, you know, emerging ministries and nonprofit ministries and those kind of things. So I guess nothing else even like having colleagues that are not Lutherans, but they are interested in more of that traditional Paris Vocate parish vocation with me in a way doesn't feel like creating a difference. If anything, that's giving me someone to relate to. Even if the theology maybe we're presenting within that parish setting is a little bit different.

Yeah, thanks.

So with your podcast, I take it you're a bit on a break for the winter or for the season or when's your next episode coming out?

I'll be honest, I don't have one scheduled at this point. I have a list of people have said that they want to come on, so I'm hoping here we do too. Classical wrap up in the next couple of weeks and we can hopefully tape a couple. I think my intent is to have a couple more out before the end of the year. I normally put them out on Fridays.

Yeah, well, so what I'm getting toward is there do you have a theme coming up? Is there sort of a. We found sort of that we get, you know, no matter how our. How our interviews end up lining up, we end up talking about sort of similar topics with people that just happen to fall in our orbit about the same time. Do you see any of that happening?

Yeah, so one. I have a couple more Lutherans. I mean, I'm gonna. I have a lot of Lutherans I'm sure that I'll interview over time. One idea that I'm seriously considering at this point for sort of a new segment is potentially having a number of non Lutheran, other Christian denomination clergy colleagues that are. That I know on to, I guess kind of that point of realizing what makes you Lutheran through conversations with non Lutherans. I think that could be interesting. You know, a couple of which would be full communion partner clergy as well, that we could have probably interesting conversations about what that means and how to, you know, how we're sort of preserving our integrity as Lutherans while also, you know, having these partnerships and things like that. So that's definitely one idea of where I could go that I think is interesting to. I apologize. Camera. Which one of you brought this up? But the point about the early episodes being, you know, more focused on Call, I do want to make sure that I don't completely lose that sort of local focus.

Yeah.

That I do have a couple of, you know, more in the category of some of those early episodes of either pastors or lay people that just. I know that have been involved for a long time that I want to interview. And I hope that even if we continue to occasionally get a Bishop Curry type guest, that those types of episodes with just people that are just part of it can remain there too. Because I think that's important. And that's part of the reason I wanted to do this is to get some people sort of on the air that maybe don't get on the air everywhere. Obviously, Bishop Eaton and Bishop Curry do a lot of amazing work, but my podcast is not the only place that you can hear an interview with them where some of these people that are just in the pews, but.

You have an interesting. Your conversation with them is very different than other conversations they have.

True, true. Yeah.

I really appreciate that.

Okay, well, thank you. I appreciate that, too. Yeah, I did try to make it about their journey and their story as opposed to just. Yeah, I mean, what they typically get is obviously, you know, where do you think the church needs to be going? Or, you know, what do you think about X or Y issue in the church right now and, you know, or why did you do this thing that, you know, you did as the providing bishop? So, yeah, I did try to keep that focus, even though their roles are different, as much as I could do a similar style interview with them than with the earlier guests as well.

I'm curious, Matthew, as you've been doing this, just given where you are in your life and, you know, I don't think it surprised anybody that, you know, Ben and I are a generation older than you and, you know, you are currently a recent college graduate and a current seminary student. So I'm curious how you might say whether this, the experience that you're having of this. Of this podcast, the interviews that you're doing, how is it shaping you in perhaps not necessarily in your faith, but possibly in your faith, possibly in your understanding of professional ministry and the elca?

Well, I think, first of all, it's reminded me or increase in me the value of sitting down and having conversations with people about their stories and the stories of the places that they worship. One thing I could see myself doing in the future in ministry is starting in a new congregation. Not literally taping podcasts, but sort of doing that type of conversation with a lot of people that have been around that congregation. Congregation, either for a long time or a short time to kind of get that perspective of what led them there and then also what led that congregation to that point. So I think that's probably been one of the biggest takeaways I've had, is that, you know, as somebody who's still involved with, you know, Capital through Trinity, I feel like the. What I have learned about just the history of this campus and of the seminary and of Lutheran involvement in those places has, you know, deepened that one. Actually one really cool sort of immediate impact of this podcast, I know that that happened was so I had Pastor Denny Oss on, who was the Director of Church relations at Capital for a long, long time, and he talked a lot about what he did in that job, which was, you know, essentially, you know, going to all these congregations and things like that. And he expressed a little bit of lament that that position was not filled when he retired. Then, you know, it sort of got merged into some other things. And, you know, we've hired some new people that are doing great work with congregations, but I know a couple of the people that. They don't have that exact title at Capital, but, you know, they do things that interface with congregations. Actually heard that episode and had some conversations about, like, hey, you know, there's this thing that Denny used to do that, you know, maybe we should think about doing that. I think that, you know, the reasons why things work can sometimes get lost over time. So I'm not saying that the only reason there are less Lutherans at Capital right now is because, you know, we don't have Denny here. Like, there's obviously a lot of factors, including there being less younger Lutherans and, you know, all kinds of things. But, like, I'm sure that had an impact, the fact that he was going around all these congregations and making people aware of both what capital had to offer to Lutheran students in terms of programming and financially. And when people ask that question, why aren't there as many Lutheran students at Capital? That may be one of many reasons for that. And is that something that we can, in a contemporary context, look at doing a little bit more of interfacing with congregations directly?

That's really cool.

Yeah. I don't know if, you know, we had Brett Tucker on early. I don't know if that. I think that was last year, and talked with him about the camp ministry that he's got.

Drew Tucker.

Drew Tucker, sorry. Yes. Yeah. So was he campus pastor while you were there?

Yes, he was. Yeah. And I know Drew fairly well and. Yeah, so.

And I'm sure my son was just talking about his talk at the youth gathering.

Yeah, yeah, I know he was. He was there as well. And actually that just gives me an interesting, I guess, thing to explore. I don't know specifically who this person would be, but I'm sure there are people out there that have been involved with Lutheran campus Min. Or Luther campus. Not campus ministry, but say also Lutheran camp ministry in the past. That could be probably some interesting.

Oh, for sure.

Conversations as well.

Yeah. I'm sure you went to lmc.

Yes, yes, I did.

That's almost in your backyard, right?

Yeah, kind of. It's still probably, you know, half hour or so from. But, yeah, pretty close. Yeah.

Keith spent some time there, I think.

I did camp training there. Yeah, but.

Right.

I worked at Camp Frederick up near Youngstown, that direction, which is no longer Camp Frederick, still exists, but it's no longer an ELCA camp.

Yeah. Part of what you're doing, and I'm sure you're aware of this, is you're preserving a history for a lot of these folks. Some of these folks probably. Well, you've talked with a few folks who've experienced the passing of their partners and such. Right. You're preserving stories that probably don't get preserved very easily any Other way. And I find a lot of our churches don't know what their history is very well. We tend to. I think there was a period where churches like to preserve their history. They like to keep the yearbook updated and, you know, have pictures from their potlucks and all this sort of stuff. And I don't think we do that as much anymore. And so what you're bringing to ministry is a way of documenting this in a way that's very approachable.

Yeah, well, I really appreciate that. And I mean, I enjoy learning about the history. I feel like I gained something from that. I also think it's just a kind of a sign of respect to those who came before you, too, that, you know, I view the office of ministry in a congregation as you're kind of the temporary custodian of that place. So, you know, kind of you want to try to live up to those who came before you in hopes that those that come after you will, you know, try to faithfully continue what you did during your time there. So. And with that question of what it means to be Lutheran, I think that's part of it is the history. Not to say that the history is the only thing that makes us Lutheran, but I think the story of who we are with anything, whether it's a church, whether it's a country, whether it's a family, the story of who you are and how you came to be, I think is a very important part of that identity.

Absolutely.

Anything you want to. Anything you want to throw in invitations to people that want to.

Yeah, I'll just say to those who would be interested. Yeah, definitely. Check out Mighty Fortresses, our pod. It's Mighty fortress pod on YouTube. And then we're also on Spotify and Apple. The most recent interview was with new Presiding Bishop Yahil Curry, which I was telling Ben and Keith the story about the ELCA promoting that. So that was a very generous thing for them to do. They posted that episode on their Instagram and Facebook. They did not give me a heads up about that ahead of time. So I found out about that from a friend texting me like, you're famous, like, you're on the hill. I'm like, what's going on here? But no, that was a really nice surprise. And I appreciate that, both on a personal level, but I think on a denominational level, the term probably gets used too much. But, like, new media gets thrown around these days of any industry, you know, is trying to connect with people that consume, you know, that. That kind of media. And I think I. What it does show is that our church sees value in trying to build that up. And that's something that, you know, you guys are doing with Main Street Lutherans, too, is, you know, starting to.

You.

Know, kind of create media that is. Is about the. The ELCA and the. The Lutheran experience. And, you know, I'm excited to see where that can go, but I'm, you know, I'm happy to see that that's something that our denomination seems to see value in and wants to see thrive.

So, yeah, yeah, we've been too late. I think that's. That's the consensus among folks, is that sometimes we have a lot of inertia as an institution, and so it takes us a while to get something started like that so that we can do it independently. Helps kickstart that sort of thing.

Absolutely. Well, and I think, you know, it's a. We're talking about other denominations and the learning opportunities that comes with being around people of other denominations. And I think that that's part of it, is that when we see other churches doing things that are working and clearly reaching out to people, we shouldn't, like, resent that. We should say, how can we use that in our own way for our own theology and perspective? Create something that's authentically Lutheran and is us, but using these new mediums. There's a guy named Martin Luther that was pretty good at using a printing press. I'll have to look him up. So, yeah, I think that's essential now. Also, it's not the be all end all in itself, too. I took a youth ministry class once, and I love the way this book called it. I think it described it as the moth effect. Some churches believe you get the bright, shiny new thing and all the youth will show up. So just having podcasts in itself isn't enough. They need to be good and have substance and all that. But I think it is.

Well, and if you want the kids, it's gotta be true crime, and so good luck with it.

Yeah, I don't know. I guess that. Hey, that could be the next Lutheran podcast.

I'm not sure.

Do we want to know about true crime and art?

I'm not sure we do.

Right.

But there's a church pianist that started listening, and so Bonnie, you'll be listening to this here shortly. And she listens to true crime podcasts and then us.

Okay, Are you getting, like, with true crime on, like, the charts then that, you know, people that listen to true crime? It's.

Well, see, we're on her chart. And that's. That's all that matters, right?

Main Street Lutherans.

Yeah, we're on her chart, so.

Right.

So that's what, that's what's nice is we don't have to compete with folks, so.

Yeah, absolutely.

So just trying to answer questions and, and we appreciate what you're doing, and you're doing a fabulous job. Keep it up. If you need any recommendations for folks, we've got a bazillion people. And. Yeah, and good luck with. Good luck with studies and I'm sure we'll run into you sooner or later.

Yeah, sounds good. I really appreciate that and appreciate what you guys are doing as well, and blessings to you on wherever this show takes you in the future.

Awesome.

Matthew, thank you for taking time to talk with us today to come on our podcast and talk about your podcast, and it's been a fun conversation. Thanks a lot.

Absolutely. Thank you.

Once again, we want to say thank you to Matthew Longfellow for taking time to speak with us. It was really neat to listen to an alumnus of the same institution where you and I met and hear, you know, his take on a podcast that's not dissimilar to ours, but goes in different directions as well. And that was. That was kind of cool. So thank you, Matthew, for sharing with us about Mighty Fortress is our pod. Yeah.

And definitely go find that on. On whatever podcast platform you listen to. I did remember that I use Pocket Cast, by the way, so we'll have links to the Spotify and Apple and Pocket Cast links for the show.

Yeah.

Great. So we have a better Noah congregation, Ben, that you picked out for us today, right?

Yes. You know, guys, if you don't give us congregations to talk about, we're just going to randomly pick them and we'll see where we go. So. So here we go. So shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church in Boulder, Colorado, part of the Rocky Mountain Synod. That's the. Well, it's. We're recording this right after the second Sunday of Advent. So it's the peaceful fightin2e or something. Right. The pastor is Pastor Janet Kettering.

Yeah. They have services at 9:30 on Sunday morning with Holy Communion and with time for sharing how God is at work. Work in their daily lives. And then right after the worship service, they have time for coffee and conversation.

Yeah. Their numbers, 84 baptized, 84 confirmed, 20 average attendance on site, and they have an average attendance online of 15. So they're in the smaller side, but they make up for that with their programs. They.

Which they've got Quite a few things going on there, don't they?

They do. So some of the stuff they do themselves, they've got a little free food pantry in the metro Detroit area. We call those blessing boxes. So it's something that people can stop by and pick up food and drop off food if they want. They're also a collection site for their community infant program, and they provide boxes to young families, food boxes for, say, Thanksgiving and stuff. They also participate in the community homeless shelter. They do services there. They also stock materials for that. They have a program called the Joshua School that is operational in their facilities and that is an autism program. They also host Scouts, both what we would traditionally call boy and girl Scouts. And of course, the. The Boy Scouts changed to all genders program. So Scouts it is. And then the really interesting thing that they've. I mean, the thing that jumped out the most is that. How would you say that, Keith? So this is a Jewish renewal congregation.

Yeah, I'm going to go with Pardes Levavot, but I could be completely, completely wrong on that.

And so they seem to do a lot of cooperative program with programs with them. And in fact, when we watch videos of the services, it looks like the tabernacle that would hold the scrolls, that would hold the Torah for them is held in this wooden cabinet in the front of the sanctuary. That's our guess. Of course, we haven't seen it in use. Yeah.

And the two congregations, both of their websites mentioned a commitment to what they called deep ecumenicalism, this notion of sharing space, which. Yeah. Seemed pretty cool. Both congregations seem pretty active in their own ways. They do a number of things together and of course, in their own individual things, too.

Yeah. That reminded me of when we were at. In Pittsburgh, the Calvary Episcopal had the Tabernacle for Tree of Life Synagogue that had.

Construction was going on.

Yeah. Yeah. And so they.

Yeah, we. We decided that if there was going to be a mascot for shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church, it should be the mountain goat.

It should. And part of that is behind the, the altar. It's. It's really hard to see. There's a lot of light coming through. There must be windows back there that shine in on. On Sunday mornings. But what we can see is sort of a drapery that most of the year is. Is a mountain. It's mountainesque, I would say. And it's. It's kind of cool.

Yeah. But then it also has the ability to change colors and shapes for the seasons, which is also kind of cool.

Yeah.

I think we saw some Lent and it had sort of a drapery that was across, right?

Yeah. So, yeah, yeah. But during the green season, which be, you know, 2/3 of the church here. Yeah, it was this sort of green mountain drape. Mountain shaped drape of fabric. It's really neat.

If you've ever tried to, to diagnose a congregation by watching their YouTube videos, you'll, you'll understand. Keith and I were talking about this for about 20 minutes and it was like we were doing our own little like real crime podcast.

Right.

You know, zoom in, zoom in, you know, enhance, enhance, yeah.

And if you too would like to learn more about shepherd of the Hills Wutheran Church, you can find their [email protected] or Pardis Levovote [email protected] and we will.

Of course have links in the episode notes there. So. Yeah. Main Street Lutherans is hosted by Keith Fair and Ben Fote and the show is produced by Phote Media Productions. You can find all, all of our contact information, links and a transcript in the episode notes. Until next time, go in peace.

Serve the Lord.

Thanks be to God.