This is Drew, and this is Ben, and this is main street Lutherans. You know, we were going to ask Keith how camp was. He was off at confirmation camp over the past couple weeks, and I did text him about that, and he said, awesome. But unfortunately, he can't be with us this episode. He had an urgent matter at home that he needed to take care of, but he'll be back for our next episode. So instead, we're fortunate to have Drew Tucker here from Homewood outdoors, the ELCa's outdoor ministry in Ohio. Welcome, Drew.

Thank you, Ben. It's good to be here, you know, and I'm glad to do what I can to stand in for Keith. You know, I kind of feel like the dollar tree imitation, but I'm glad to be here nonetheless.

I like you, but I think you're quite a fit replacement for him.

But I was actually just at camp. I texted you on my way that I was stuck behind a semi, and camp was awesome there as well up at Hopewood Pines, one of our two sites here in Ohio. So, yeah, it's been a good. And I was at Hopewood Shores just earlier this week, so it's been good.

Yeah. And I know that Keith's been to both of those. I have not been up to Hopewood shores or what we knew back then as Camp Luther, but, yeah, it's a unique environment. I remember that.

Absolutely. And are we going to let the people know that you are, in fact, an alum of this illustrious organization that you served in one of our ministries that became Lutheran outdoor ministries in Ohio?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Miami Valley outdoor Ministries, a day camp system. It was a very interesting thing, so.

That's right. Well, if anybody wants to be a day camp counselor in summer 25, you just reach out to me, and I will have a place for you, I promise.

Yeah. What's. What's the cap on age there? Like 87?

There is no cap on age. Right. Like, if you love Jesus and kids, we will find a way to put you into service for the Lord and for faith formation.

Now, what's the. What's the younger age, though? Start at 16 or 18.

So for counselors, we need you to be at least 18, and that's because of our American Camp association accreditation. But if you wanted to serve on site in support staff positions, so supporting kitchen facilities, lifeguarding, you can be whatever the working age is in your state. And so 14 for any position, in our case, except lifeguard, which requires 16 due to some state regulations.

Awesome. Yeah. So your background, I knew of you at least as the campus minister at Capital University. And I think you've had a rich history as a pastor and now as a camp system director, I guess we'd.

Call you man system director makes me even more cautious about what the future is. But yeah. So I spent the first dozen years of ministry, both lay and ordained, in campus ministry. I served at Duke University, the University of South Carolina, Virginia Tech, and then full time ordained at Capitol University from 2017 to 2023. And I loved higher Ed. I thought I was going to be there forever. And so it was a real surprise to be called in this way. But one of the things I knew as I was discerning the potential for a different call was that I wasn't done supporting young adults in their vocational development and in their faith formation. And so when a friend asked me to consider this part of it was because I had some administrative experience in the university setting. But for me, one of the keys of realizing that this was not just possible, but valuable was that every summer I get to hire 35, 40 young adults and be a part of their training, a part of their development, a resource for their everything from their prayer life to their curious theological questions to the why do the camper postcards look like this? So, questions all over, but yeah. So it's great that though this is a very different kind of ministry. And you're right, we have two sites and an outreach ministry. So really three expressions. That means we are constantly going in different directions. And I have to eat a little bit of crow every time I talk about this because I grew up with a family business in northeast Ohio. My family ran a small meat packing plant. My cousin runs it still today. Marshable packing. Shout out to them. But I found myself telling my dad about 25 years ago, no, dad, I don't want to take over the family business. I don't want to really do the business stuff. I just want to be with people. So now I get to do things like evaluate audited financial statements. So, you know, it's a really strange place to be, but I love it.

Right. And, well, that camping accreditation certainly has. Has paperwork involved in it.

It does, but it's nothing like higher ed accreditation. So I give thanks for that. We have a good protection for our campers, but not that much paperwork that, you know, the Lord is blessing us that way.

Excellent, excellent. Brought you on initially to talk about the history and the purpose and the future of camp ministry in Lutheranism. I know there's a rich history that we've got that's sort of particular to Lutheranism. How do we get into that?

You know, it's a really great question, and the first thing I am going to say to you and your listeners is that I am not an expert on that, but I have the fortunate relationship with a few people who do a lot of academic study and that have a lot more history in it than I do. One of those people is named Jacob Sorensen, and he does a ton of research into camps, not just in their current iterations of how camps help faith formation in kids, but also his newest book is one that really explores the historical backgrounds of camp, and that book is called sacred playgrounds. So I highly recommend, if you want to know more about this, and I'm going to kind of give you an overview of what I've learned from Jacob and others. Sacred Playgrounds is a great way to dive in, but the history of camp, you know, really kind of develops in two separate streams in the United States, and both of them affect lutheran camping. One is the revival movement that leads to kind of the tent camp meetings that happen. And so those, we think of those as primarily pietist or evangelical, but those happened in denominational churches of all sorts, including Lutheran, even Catholic. And so that growth of having a sacred place where our church meets every year for this kind of meeting is something that led to in Methodism, like the Chautauqua Institute or the lakeside Marblehead expression that's up in northwest Ohio here. And so those places are camps, but they're not camps like we think of YMCA camp or four H camp or scout camp or kids church camp, which is where really, the other expression comes. One of our camps, Camp Luther at Hoakwood Shores, is really a reflection of that tradition because it was founded by finnish Lutherans as their kind of special place apart, because it's this Suami synod was spread apart the kind of great lakes, and they couldn't have a regular place to gather on a weekly or even monthly basis. So they bought this property to give themselves a chance to, in the summer, come together and have their kind of camp meeting experience around their religious and ethnic and cultural traditions. So while we don't have the swami synod anymore, we do have a number of finnish descent folks who still find themselves camping at Camp Luther, Oakwood shores every year. And so that's a fun track. Yeah. And it's really fun history in our chapel. There's some of that history that's actually laid out.

Yeah. Yeah. And we lost Swami college or Finlandia here exactly, just last year. So.

Yes, and that was, you know, one of the things that, that happened during the kind of end of my tenure in higher ed, and that's, you know, just, we're talking about camps, but I think the reality of camps and higher education, campus ministries, for that matter, is that we're all going through this kind of inflection point that is forcing us to rethink what is the best thing for our structure, what is the best thing for our people that we're called to serve. And, you know, our organization, years ago, in 2019, I believe, sold Camp Moana, which is the camp I grew up attending. You know, I love that place. Some of my most meaningful moments were there. And so on the one hand, there's certainly pain in that, just like the sale enclosure of Finlandia. But on the other hand, I'm really thankful that when the organization did sell Moana, they worked with the county parks district to make a nature preserve so in perpetuity, people can still go camp there in perpetuity. Those of us that grew up there can still go and have wonderful experiences at Fleming falls. You know, that kind of thing is still possible. And so I think all of us are at that kind of inflection point. But that's the interesting thing that with camp history, that's where the kind of movement toward youth camping came, was at this other inflection point in history. And we're looking at how do we form young people, young minds? And there was certainly a kind of masculinity inside of that. The initial kind of rise of youth camping was how do we shape young men? Which is, again, historically speaking, where the liberal arts come from as well. And so we developed these camps for young men that are scout camps, that are YMCA camps, and then churches start to take note of that and say, we want to have something like that, too. Salvation army does that pretty early on, and then Lutherans do that as well. So the oldest of our organization was, in fact, Camp Moana. It was a former boy scout camp that then became a lutheran camp in the twenties. And then Lutheran memorial camp, what we call Hoquood Pines today, was founded just after World War two. And the memorial in there is for the soldiers of the american Lutheran church who fought and died during the second world War. And I actually got to meet just a few weeks ago, a woman at Augsburg Lutheran in Cincinnati, who pulled me aside and said, I need to tell you something. And I was worried she was going to be mad about a camp sale or a rebrand, something like that. And she said, I was at the first Bible conference at what became Lutheran memorial camp before it was ever lutheran memorial camp. And my jaw just dropped, right, because that was 1940 419 45, you know, before the camp was even officially founded. So we have that kind of history, you know, the, the. We are going away to camp meeting as a family, as a church, as a, as a denomination even, and the sending our children away to develop in some way. We've gone away, obviously, we have camping for kids of all genders, and we've gone away from this kind of. We are forming men in a particular way to instead say, how are we forming young people of faith and how are we helping them to learn about who God is, who the church is, and in particular how we relate to the environment around us. And so that's how, you know, our particular history relates to the general development of church camps in the United States.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah, it's great. And I'm thankful for people like Jacob, again, who traced that history and did all the kind of research for me to come into this role and see how unique our organization is to have an expression of each of those parts of history that still, I think, have a very real role to play today.

Yeah. Now, how are camps structured? Is there anything at the ELCA that supports our outdoor ministries?

You know, it's a good question, and I will say first to the question, to be clear, yes, there are ways that our camps are supported, but not all of the camps are structured the same way. So some camps are truly independent, some camps are congregationally owned and some camps are synodically owned. And it really depends on what synods and congregations decided to do around the formation of the ELCA in 1988. We are one of the independently incorporated nonprofit camps. Our corporate members are the three synods of Ohio. So the northeastern Ohio Senate, the northwestern Ohio Senate and the southern Ohio Senate are three corporate members. That doesn't mean that they give us a certain amount of funding. That doesn't mean that they decide what we do or do not do. You know, there's not a lot of detail in those incorporation documents about what that corporate membership means. So it really sometimes depends on the relationship between the bishop and the synodical councils and the organization about how that works. So we've been fortunate to retain a relationship. You know, we get funding, about $20,000 each from the three synods. So, you know, out of our this year to run all of the camps all throughout the year, maintain all the buildings, you know, it's probably $1.4 million, you know, so the synods give us $60,000 of that. And I'm grateful for that. Right. I'm not judging that amount. I'm not condemning that. It's just the financial reality of where camps are today. Now, 50 years ago, they were entirely funded by senates. That's the financial model from before. And so that's part of what I mean about an inflection point, is that we're re emerging in a new model, and we're trying to figure out how to do that in ways that are both financially viable and retain the commitments to giving away things like camperships or scholarships for camp. You know, we gave away more than $90,000 in camperships last year, and I'm anticipating we'll give away more this year. And so my commitment is not to say we need to make more money, but really what we need to do is ensure we can provide those camperships for the kids that can't otherwise afford to come, the families that otherwise can't afford to come. So. So, yeah, so those are the structures. We do have what's called the lutheran outdoor ministry Network, and that's an independent network of camps. We have a little bit of support from the churchwide office in terms of managing a grants that we got from the Lilly endowment. And so that is a. Funded by the Lilly Endowment position, but it is done through the churchwide office, basically to make the finances easy between Lilly and the camps. Right. And so that's something that we have still in place. But Don Johnson, the current director of that network, the executive director of Bluecorne Outdoor ministries, he's not a churchwide staff member. He is an independent staff member who is employed by our network.

Okay. Yeah, that sounds similar. When we talked with Elizabeth Friedman from U of M, she sounds very similar to the. How campus ministries sort of interface with the ELCA right now.

It is very similar. That's how the ELCA kind of moved to spin off different organizations. Similar things happen to Welka and the deaconess community and lutheran admission and all sorts of that. And, you know, shout out to Elizabeth, one of my favorite former colleagues, miss you and all the others in campus ministry.

She just sat her kids at camp, I think.

Of course, she is a good camp parent and pastor, for sure.

Absolutely. So what's your. You've been in. In this role for a year? You seem pretty excited about camps.

Yeah.

Is there a lot to be excited about with camps?

If you are okay with change? There is a lot to be excited about with camps. I truly do believe that we, our organization. We and we camping ministry of the church more broadly. We have a lot to offer in this era that is meeting needs and will become more obvious in the near future of meeting needs that either congregations used to meet and can no longer meet because of the decrease in funding and the way that congregations are structured, as well as to do some things that congregations cannot do because of their organizational structure or have not thought they were able to do or should do because of a theological or sociological belief. And I'll speak to both of those things. It's just financial struggle. Right. You know, like I said, from the synods, we get, I don't want to do a percentage of that, a very little amount of our overall budget. Congregations also support us. We have individuals who support us. Really, the easiest way to say it is about half of our revenue comes from camper fees, retreat fees, you know, some kind of income that way, and the other half comes from congregations, synods, individuals and grants of some kind. And so that's really where we're looking at the revenue distribution model at this point.

Yeah.

And honestly, if we look at where the church is right now, I think we have to be intent on growing the grants side of that and the revenue side of that, because we can expect congregations that are shrinking and who have shrinking budgets to be able to keep giving at that level. And so we have to be really intentional about that. And since I've been here, we have been awarded just in the last a year and two days, we've been awarded over $60,000 in grants not related to congregational endowments. Right. So, from other sources. So there's opportunities out there, but that means my job looks very different than my predecessors. I've written probably 40 to 50 grants this year, gotten a lot of no's, but gotten a lot of yeses. And part of that means we get to do new things as well as fund current priorities. So sometimes when we get a grant, that means, hey, you know, this means we're doing something instead of something else. So that's why when I say if you're okay with change, I think the future is bright.

Right?

But the other fun thing about our camps, and again, the locations of our camps is one of them, Hopewood Pines is in the Columbus metropolitan area, where the northernmost county in the Columbus metro area. And so we're the kind of like last place where land is even remotely affordable right now. And there are, you know, Ryan home style neighborhoods just beginning to purchase fields and will be popping up soon. And so one of the things that we're looking at is a future where we do day camps on site, because we will have many more people around us and we will have opportunities to do things like perhaps have a year round daycare, perhaps have a year on preschool, because that then becomes a synergistic move. Right. Preschoolers, daycare, kids can see, oh, there's a place where I can go for a week in the summer and do that climbing wall. There's a place where I can go for the summer and, you know, go to the archery range.

You'll almost, you know, there's potential that you'll almost become a suburban church almost without. Without a Sunday service.

Exactly. And that's the other piece. When I say things that churches used to do and really aren't able to do anymore, we, we are. There is no elca church within 8 miles of us. And I think we are really well suited to become a kind of spiritual community for people. I wouldn't say congregation. You know, we are not a sacramental community, but a place where we got a small grant from one of our synodical partners, shout out to northwestern Ohio synod micro grants to install a prayer labyrinth on our site right out front as a testimony to the community that this place is for you to stop by any time to have a spiritual experience. So we'll be installing that hopefully this fall. And that kind of openness is something we're really trying to bring. And I think the reason camps can do that in ways that congregations may not be able to is that we also, with rebranding kinds of things, can become more conversant with organizations. So for the first time in I don't know how long, maybe ever, we had AmeriCorps volunteers serving as a part of their year of service with us. So this federal program that is not religiously affiliated at all, we had students, students, we had young adults with us for three weeks who were expanding trails and connecting us to the local community so we could be more engaged with Fulton, which is the tiny little town just north of camp. And we've applied to bring back a team again this fall for eight weeks to continue that work at both sites now. And so it's that kind of thing that I think the future of the camps really is exciting. You just have to be aware that it's not going to look like all of our funding is going to come from the church. All of our funding is going to come from fees that we're going to have this idealism of an endowment that's going to pay for everything now don't get me wrong. If you out there have a billion dollars or so and you're looking for something to do with a part of that, I'd love to talk to you, but in more realistic terms, we have to be partnered in more diverse places and have multiple revenue streams in order to keep camp affordable and accessible for everyone.

Well, and I'll tell you, I asked on Facebook and I asked on Reddit about people's camp experience, and it came up multiple times that the camp systems these folks grew up in are high level beneficiaries of their insurance policies and, and things. So there are a lot of people who are doing planning, advanced financial planning to help support those institutions. And I think two of them in particular mentioned the Ohio operation.

That's great. Yeah. They're part of our living water society, is what we call our giving or legacy giving organization. But yeah. And I think that's one of the things that for my generation, I'm trying to be tactful in conversation about is the, the transfer of wealth they're talking about from the baby boomer, baby boomer generation to the millennial generation is going to be very real. And so empowering people to think clearly about what do they want to do with that wealth when it comes their way, because that is not necessarily something that we have been prepared for. And so how to do that well and how to do that faithfully, and that could be to your campus ministry. Right. That could be to your congregation. That could be to the American Red Cross or to humane society. Right. There's lots of places. But I think generosity with what we do have, whether it's an hour later, is a core component of continuing our priorities or our values, even if we're not able to be on camp staff every week. Right. Or we're not there to see the kids take advantage of the climbing wall.

Or the pool or whatever. And I have arranged, we're going to bring somebody on that has worked with the ELCA endowments in the future to talk about how those work and how best to use those at the congregational level and as an individual contributing to those things. So that'll be nice.

That's super helpful for people to hear about because I think many people don't realize we have that resource.

Yeah. Our money can work for the church long past ourselves. So right now, as far as non financial ways, what are ways that people can get involved in camps? And we talked about working for a summer, but I'm sure you have volunteer pastors for weeks.

Absolutely. So I would say it's true of all of our ELCA camps that volunteers are the heartbeat of our operation. I just got done meeting with volunteers who were current or former pastors, current deacons, current preschool superintendents, all of whom chose to spend this week at camp and be a part of the program. So they have been super generous with their time. And some of that is during the summer. But we also, and I'm sure many camps have these as well, have fall and spring work weekends or work days, because to manage a property like ours, we have 480 acres across these two sites, and we have three part time facilities, folks between all three of them. So that means that we need some help in managing the property as well. And I'm sure the same is true of camps in Michigan and Illinois and California and Texas and everywhere else. So volunteering, not just during the summer, but throughout the year, I think is really important. I also think it's easy for us to overlook how important it is to pray for our camps and to pray for our camps, not just in worship on camp Sunday. That's great. We love that opportunity to feature. But in your personal devotional life, just remember the camp that formed you. Remember the counselor that helped you discover your faith. Remember, maybe you didn't grow up as a camper, but you heard about it in church, that there is a group of young folks who are at a place 50 miles away in the middle of the woods, and they're trying to do some faith formation, keep those folks in prayer because it's unreal how much we both need and feel prayer, right? And that's absolutely true. We need it and we feel it because there is something of the scattered and gathered community that we experience at camp that is really vital. So volunteering is helpful. Prayer is helpful. Obviously, you know, we talk about the money stuff, but I also think there are, there's some ways that people don't realize we have structured life, and it can be helpful to think about camps in those times as well. So do you remember the jingle that has haunted all of us? 1877 cars for kids. Dear goodness. Like, I'm not going to sing it because I don't want to wish that on anyone. One of the biggest things that camps often need are vehicle donations. Not just, you know, four by fours to haul wood down to repair the cabins, but folks like us who do day camps, you know, sedans and minivans to take our counselors out to different camps. So if you're going to trade in your car for not very much money and you want to donate it and get a tax write off instead. That can be a huge help that you may not ever notice or realize is an opportunity for camps across the country.

I drove the LMC station wagon out to Eaton, Ohio one day. That was insane. It didn't have rear view mirrors.

Oh, oh, that's a.

So, yeah, I'm sure that's not around anymore.

No, we no longer have the station wagon. We have a couple of trucks currently, and we have, you know, everything from, you know, John Deere Gators to golf carts and things like that. And we have one big Buick sedan that is really our people mover at this point. But, yeah, so there's things like that the same, same way with things like appliances, right? If loads are just going to haul away your functioning refrigerator, I bet your camp staff lounge could really use that. And they've probably got someone with an old truck who would be willing to come by and take it away from you. So there's little things like that. But lastly, I think, you know, I said, keep us in your prayers outside of worship, and if camp's important to you, bring that up to your pastor, bring that up to your deacons, bring that up to your church staff, your church council, and just ask, like, how can we as a community feature camps? Right? Again, it doesn't have to be about money, but it can be about, are there ways that during our rally day in the fall, if you're doing a rally day, that we can feature our camps as one of the options that's available for faith formation for our kids? Is there a way that maybe your council retreat can be at one of the camps? And by the way, you might not know that some camps like us offer that entirely free of charge. If you want to come and do your council retreat on a Saturday, you can do that and you don't have to pay us anything. If you want to bring your own food, good for you. If you want us to cook for you, it'd just be whatever the meal price is. There's things like that that you can sometimes get more involved at a very economically valuable number for you, but it also just keep you in place and in mind of this is a resource for us, because that's what I think when you say, how are camps doing and what's the future look like? We exist to be a resource for the church in the world. And so I always want to remind people that pastors are welcome to come and do, you know, long term or short term stays with us free of charge again. And if there's meals being served while you're there. Those meals are included as well because you have a lot on your plates. Deacons as well. I began to tell just all church staff, listen, if you need this, we got the space because we will thrive together. And so we want to be a resource for the church and for the world. 20% of our campers aren't christians. Right. We serve public and private schools in our environmental ed programs. We have all sorts of different people that are interested in our success and also interested in what we can do for them. And so, keeping in mind that as we serve the church, just as Christ has called us to do through the church, we serve the world. And so that is something that remains at the core of what we do.

Yeah, that's awesome. Now, a question I didn't prepare you for.

Yes.

Is there a camp in the United States that you have always wanted to.

Go to and I haven't gone to yet?

Yeah.

Okay. Yes, there are a couple. Both are out west. I have not yet been to Holden Village. If you are in the camping world and know the legend of Holden Village out in Washington state, it is a legend, and I've not experienced it. Have you?

I almost did after college, and then it was just too expensive to commit a season there. Yes. But it is on the list.

Yep. And so, Holden, for those of you all that don't know, you literally can't drive there on your own. You got to take, like, a boat across a lake, or there's like, a bus that might take you there from a parking lot, and it's journey just to arrive. But there's also a place that I've actually, as a campus pastor, I get to do fun things like send young adults to work in other camps that I've never been to or camps in other parts of the country that I hadn't been to. So some of my staff or some of my students ended up serving at Rainbow Trail out in Colorado. And I've heard wonderful things about it from them and from others in the camp community. I'd love to get out there, too. But again, we've got places all over the country. Crossroads in New Jersey. I think it's El Camino Pines in California. There's places all over. And then there's the places that formed me outside of Ohio. The camp agape and Kerry beach in North Carolina, as well as Luther Ridge and Luther Rock, were really important in my formation. And then there were some camps in Virginia that during my first call, I got to see how valuable they were, you know, so it's the thing. Yes. For me, Holden and Rainbow trail. But there's. If you want to see a camp, there's a lot of places close by that you can find.

Sure are. Sure are. So this is where we get to our catechism questions. So I'll explain it to you, and then I can explain to everybody else. So we do catechism questions at the end of each episode. It's a way for our listeners to participate. So this is the audience participation section of our show. And our last episode, our question was, we recite the apostles Creed two, and the answers were fill up two minutes of dead airtime on the radio. Remember who we are and what we believe. The c answers stand together with a billion christians around the world in a common witness to God and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And the d was both b and c. And of course, the answer is both b and c. So I asked if you could provide us a question for catechism for this week. What have you got for us?

Yes, I feel honored, and again, I'll do my best to stand in. So my question is, as you think about the catechism and think about what we hear from Doctor Luther about through all of the things we do, the apostles Creed, the commandments, the Lord's prayer. So think about the commandments here. What animal of appears in the Ten Commandments? And I want to be clear, in case you're going to your small catechism right now in the Ten Commandments, not the explanations to the commandments. All right, so an animal appears in the Ten Commandments. A muskrat, a parrot, a bear, or a squid.

Ooh, that's a tough one. So all you, uh, all you animal experts out there sending in your answer, Main Street Lutherans is usually hosted by Keith Fair and Ben Fote. Thanks to you, Drew Tucker. You can reach us by email mainstreet lutheransmail.com dot. Our website, of course, is mainstreetlutherans.com dot. We're on the socials as mainstreet Lutherans on Facebook, Instagram threads, and YouTube. You can even call to leave us a message at 734-250-9554 all of those are in the episode notes, and the show is produced by Folk media Productions. Until next time, go in peace. Serve the Lord.

Thanks be to God.